That's not really relevant. We and they have both freedom from religion and freedom of religion.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

that is not the question at hand. That is the question at hand with you and IMU.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

It's quite relevant though when the founding fathers of the nation were largely atheist. Israel was declared as a Jewish homeland in the idea of the Jews as an ethnic group (which they are) as well as a place where religious Jews could practice.

Polling within Israel time and time again shows the majority to be secular. Just 1 visit to Tel Aviv demonstrates this quite well.

Israel was foremost founded as a place where Jews could escape persecution, which was present in the Arab world as well as the Western World. That trumped any other aspect in the founding of Israel.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

Religious and non religious alike had the same goal.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

and you piggybacked on to that discussion with your comments in bold above where you said you agreed with IMU.

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Any future arguments on Israel and Jews should be run past Ogie for approval first.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

The Jesuit pope took the name of the founder of the Franciscans. And he gets his personal spiritual direction from non-Jesuits as well. Does that give you some insight JORR?

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It was nice that all of their Muslim neighbors understood and respected this right from the start too.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It was the non-religious who drove it. The religious accepted Israel after the fact realizing it was futile to resist it. Plus they found they could not safely practice where they lived so they flocked there after the secular Zionist movement won the state.

While it's a work of fiction, Chaim Potok's "The Chosen" really does a great job on the struggle between the 2 groups. Those who were alive in the 40's can say it was an accurate portrayal. The relationship between Danny and Reuven fractures over this point, and yes things like that did happen within the Jewish community in the 40s as the Orthodox did strongly oppose the idea of humans founding a Jewish state.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

Agreed. As a member of the tribe I'm more than cool with Ogie being our official spokesperson on the board. And I'll just come in whenever someone needs to be insulted.

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and one visit to Jerusalem demonstrates the opposite

You speak as if the persecution was not entirely intertwined with religion.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Are you purposely missing the qualifiers?

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I wonder to what extent the identity of being besieged persuades Israelis to turn (back) to religion? It sounds pretty complicated over there....

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Why would they resist something they were happy to see occur?

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

You don't have to be Jewish to realize that some Jews have a deep connection with Israel, and some don't give a shit. Shakes and IMU are both wrong.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The "in part" part or the "full vision" part?

Yes, I'm ignoring those ambiguous qualifiers that aren't defined.

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Even Jerusalem is probably only about 1/3rd Orthodox. (the remaining 2/3rds is pretty evenly split as 1/3rd secular and 1/3rd Arab).

Besides, the population of Tel Aviv and it's surrounding suburbs (what would be referred to as the Gush Dan) is several times larger than that of Jerusalem. When Israel votes, the Orthodox parties garner barely more than 10% of the available Knesset seats. As it stands now UTJ and Shas hold 13 of 120 seats.

As a nation, Israel is primarily secular. Nothing can demonstrate that more than life there, and yes I lived there as an agnostic Jew.

As for persecution, the Jewish populations in Germany were largely non-religious and assimilated. They mirrored those of the founders of Zionism, who were also non-religious. The religious Jews primarily lived in Eastern Europe and didn't come under Nazi thumb until the Final Solution was already in motion. Hitler targeted the Jews as an ethnic group, not a religious group as proven by the Nuremberg Laws.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

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I don't think they were happy to see it occur at the time, thus they largely opposed it. They only embraced Israel after the fact.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

No, IMU claimed that basically all American jews don't care about Israel. As someone who has known more jews than everyone on this board put together (other than my fellow tribe members) I can tell you that the percentage of American jews who care deeply about Israel is probably around 80-90%. Yes, there are some who don't give a shit, but they are in the vast minority. My two brothers don't care, but every other person in my entire extended family sure does.

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Orthodox is not the only practice of the religion.

but we are talking about the founding

Do you have any support for your statement that German Jews were largely non religious. One of the primary avenues for Nazis to find Jews was through temple affiliation and records.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Come on Shakes, they're just pretending to care....

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Might be a generational thing. The Jewish guys I know never mention Israel. I'm really only good friends with 2 Jewish guys though, I think, so that doesn't really mean anything.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

sufficiently non ambiguous for you to recognize them as qualifiers when called on it

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

The IMU's and ltg's of the world have also tried to shame Jews who support Israel so it isn't exactly a shock that Jews aren't coming up to them saying "You know what is awesome? Israel".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It's impossible to separate modern Jewish identity from the Shoah. That being the case, the continuing existence of Israel is a crucial part of the "never again" philosophy for Jews no matter where on the globe they may currently reside.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

so let me get this straight. You jump into an argument between me and IMU relating to a specific and well defined issue and state that you agree with IMU, but as it later turns out you were actually trying to make a point about something completely unrelated to the argument we were having? And you think I'm the one being obtuse. I think you need to get a few of your relatives over to help you type out your posts cause you're acting extra Pollacky today.

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It's as clear as "agree in part".

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

So it only took like 6 months for shakes to go from a Trumpet to a snowflake?

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

unless I don't understand the term, snowflakes are the ones supporting Palastine and Trump is the one supporting Israel...so no.

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