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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:23 am 
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You're dead on Ogie. CNN has the Brady Bunch pundit screen thing going on. Bunch of spin doctors shouting at one another.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:25 am 
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Peter Puck wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Heck it's not lost one me that I as a Jew and defending a literal Nazi here (he posted several antisemitic memes and also loved to use the N word on Reddit).

However, I defend him here in the principal of free speech and the ability to not be destroyed by the media here as if they can do it to him, then they can do it to us as well. I prefer that we not set out on this slippery slope. It's the same concept behind Jewish lawyers at the ACLU defending the rights of Nazis to march in Skokie in 1978. They had to stand up for the Nazis there as if they lost their right, who is to say we won't be next in line?


The right to free speech, which only precludes the government from censoring you, does not include a right to anonymity. This is like saying redneck sheet wearing Klansmen are entitled to anonymity.

There's a line that has to be drawn when the press believes it can ruin the life of a private citizen who posts something anonymously.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:28 am 
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It's worth noting but mr @KFile has been silent on Twitter the last 18 hours. Have a feeling some at CNN are not happy with what he has done, despite their sleazy attempt to defend him via their Reliable Sources newsletter. Brian Stelter has become a joke. He chastises all other media sources, but is silent when CNN commits grave journalistic sins.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:29 am 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Heck it's not lost one me that I as a Jew and defending a literal Nazi here (he posted several antisemitic memes and also loved to use the N word on Reddit).

However, I defend him here in the principal of free speech and the ability to not be destroyed by the media here as if they can do it to him, then they can do it to us as well. I prefer that we not set out on this slippery slope. It's the same concept behind Jewish lawyers at the ACLU defending the rights of Nazis to march in Skokie in 1978. They had to stand up for the Nazis there as if they lost their right, who is to say we won't be next in line?


The right to free speech, which only precludes the government from censoring you, does not include a right to anonymity. This is like saying redneck sheet wearing Klansmen are entitled to anonymity.

There's a line that has to be drawn when the press believes it can ruin the life of a private citizen who posts something anonymously.


If it is posted publicly, not really any different than the redneck sheet wearing Klansman.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:32 am 
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Peter Puck wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Heck it's not lost one me that I as a Jew and defending a literal Nazi here (he posted several antisemitic memes and also loved to use the N word on Reddit).

However, I defend him here in the principal of free speech and the ability to not be destroyed by the media here as if they can do it to him, then they can do it to us as well. I prefer that we not set out on this slippery slope. It's the same concept behind Jewish lawyers at the ACLU defending the rights of Nazis to march in Skokie in 1978. They had to stand up for the Nazis there as if they lost their right, who is to say we won't be next in line?


The right to free speech, which only precludes the government from censoring you, does not include a right to anonymity. This is like saying redneck sheet wearing Klansmen are entitled to anonymity.

There's a line that has to be drawn when the press believes it can ruin the life of a private citizen who posts something anonymously.


If it is posted publicly, not really any different than the redneck sheet wearing Klansman.

It's one thing if people within the Reddit community do it, but a private citizen who has no relevance to the news of the day should not be outed by a news conglomerate for private postings.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:40 am 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Heck it's not lost one me that I as a Jew and defending a literal Nazi here (he posted several antisemitic memes and also loved to use the N word on Reddit).

However, I defend him here in the principal of free speech and the ability to not be destroyed by the media here as if they can do it to him, then they can do it to us as well. I prefer that we not set out on this slippery slope. It's the same concept behind Jewish lawyers at the ACLU defending the rights of Nazis to march in Skokie in 1978. They had to stand up for the Nazis there as if they lost their right, who is to say we won't be next in line?


The right to free speech, which only precludes the government from censoring you, does not include a right to anonymity. This is like saying redneck sheet wearing Klansmen are entitled to anonymity.

There's a line that has to be drawn when the press believes it can ruin the life of a private citizen who posts something anonymously.


If it is posted publicly, not really any different than the redneck sheet wearing Klansman.

It's one thing if people within the Reddit community do it, but a private citizen who has no relevance to the news of the day should not be outed by a news conglomerate for private postings.


It was a public posting. Just like posts here (and on the DiCaro thread...). Free speech does not prevent non-governmental entities/people from holding you accountable for what you say/post.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:42 am 
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Peter Puck wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Heck it's not lost one me that I as a Jew and defending a literal Nazi here (he posted several antisemitic memes and also loved to use the N word on Reddit).

However, I defend him here in the principal of free speech and the ability to not be destroyed by the media here as if they can do it to him, then they can do it to us as well. I prefer that we not set out on this slippery slope. It's the same concept behind Jewish lawyers at the ACLU defending the rights of Nazis to march in Skokie in 1978. They had to stand up for the Nazis there as if they lost their right, who is to say we won't be next in line?


The right to free speech, which only precludes the government from censoring you, does not include a right to anonymity. This is like saying redneck sheet wearing Klansmen are entitled to anonymity.

There's a line that has to be drawn when the press believes it can ruin the life of a private citizen who posts something anonymously.

Perhaps if a crime was committed but there was not.
If it is posted publicly, not really any different than the redneck sheet wearing Klansman.

It's one thing if people within the Reddit community do it, but a private citizen who has no relevance to the news of the day should not be outed by a news conglomerate for private postings.


It was a public posting. Just like posts here (and on the DiCaro thread...). Free speech does not prevent non-governmental entities/people from holding you accountable for what you say/post.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:43 am 
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Legally CNN can doxx anyone they want. The coercion part they can't.

It is wrong for a news organization that uses anonymous sources to out someone out of spite though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:58 am 
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Darkside wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:

The right to free speech, which only precludes the government from censoring you, does not include a right to anonymity. This is like saying redneck sheet wearing Klansmen are entitled to anonymity.

There's a line that has to be drawn when the press believes it can ruin the life of a private citizen who posts something anonymously.

Perhaps if a crime was committed but there was not.
If it is posted publicly, not really any different than the redneck sheet wearing Klansman.




Whether a crime was committed is wholly irrelevant. You express an opinion publicly, whether it is posting anonymously here, 4Chan, Reddit or wearing a Klan hood, a private person may take action against you. Now, Illinois does have the Right to Privacy in the Workplace Act prohibiting employers taking action against employees who use legal products outside of work (does not necessarily apply to non-profits) and from employers demanding Facebook passwords, etc., but it would not cover an instance where someone else doxxed someone who made sexist or racists comments online.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:01 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Legally CNN can doxx anyone they want. The coercion part they can't.

It is wrong for a news organization that uses anonymous sources to out someone out of spite though.


1. Provided they violated no laws to get his personal info, why can't they coerce him to remove the post?

2. Wrong, but not necessarily illegal. Not the best business practice. Newspapers act out of spite all the time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:07 am 
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Peter Puck wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Legally CNN can doxx anyone they want. The coercion part they can't.

It is wrong for a news organization that uses anonymous sources to out someone out of spite though.


1. Provided they violated no laws to get his personal info, why can't they coerce him to remove the post?

2. Wrong, but not necessarily illegal. Not the best business practice. Newspapers act out of spite all the time.



I don't know about the legality, but they're on a slippery slope for a "news organization" that relies on anonymous sources. Who could ever trust them? Let's say I get sideways with one of their reporters and now he's threatening me. No thanks.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:07 am 
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Peter Puck wrote:
1. Provided they violated no laws to get his personal info, why can't they coerce him to remove the post?
That part may be illegal and it certainly is wrong for a news organization to do it. There is a reason they "clarified" what they did with him a few times.

Peter Puck wrote:
2. Wrong, but not necessarily illegal. Not the best business practice. Newspapers act out of spite all the time.
Do newspapers act out of spite all the time on private citizens who aren't actively involved in news?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:09 am 
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Vox has a great explanation as to why journalists should not publish info re private citizens

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... -wrestling

"In journalism, there is a clear line between public and private figures. Public figures are held to a higher standard — since they represent not just themselves but their offices, their industries, and so on. But private figures are given a veil of privacy, since it’s not really in the public interest to get some random person’s private information."

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:30 am 
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Peter Puck wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Legally CNN can doxx anyone they want. The coercion part they can't.

It is wrong for a news organization that uses anonymous sources to out someone out of spite though.


1. Provided they violated no laws to get his personal info, why can't they coerce him to remove the post?


Quote:
A person is guilty of coercion in the second degree when he or she compels or induces a person to engage in conduct which the latter has a legal right to abstain from engaging in, or to abstain from engaging in conduct in which he or she has a legal right to engage, or compels or induces a person to join a group, organization or criminal enterprise which such latter person has a right to abstain from joining, by means of instilling in him or her a fear that, if the demand is not complied with, the actor or another will:
1. Cause physical injury to a person;  or
2. Cause damage to property;  or
3. Engage in other conduct constituting a crime;  or
4. Accuse some person of a crime or cause criminal charges to be instituted against him or her;  or
5. Expose a secret or publicize an asserted fact, whether true or false, tending to subject some person to hatred, contempt or ridicule;  or
6. Cause a strike, boycott or other collective labor group action injurious to some person's business;  except that such a threat shall not be deemed coercive when the act or omission compelled is for the benefit of the group in whose interest the actor purports to act;  or
7. Testify or provide information or withhold testimony or information with respect to another's legal claim or defense;  or
8. Use or abuse his or her position as a public servant by performing some act within or related to his or her official duties, or by failing or refusing to perform an official duty, in such manner as to affect some person adversely;  or
9. Perform any other act which would not in itself materially benefit the actor but which is calculated to harm another person materially with respect to his or her health, safety, business, calling, career, financial condition, reputation or personal relationships.
Coercion in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.


EDIT: Kaczynski is based in New York, and presumably that is where he contacted this guy and intimidated him. And if the guy isn't in New York (or CNN didn't call him from New York):

Quote:
If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or

If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured—

They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.


That's why.

On top of the sketchy legality of their actions, it's just wrong for a major news conglomerate to do this.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:52 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Legally CNN can doxx anyone they want. The coercion part they can't.

It is wrong for a news organization that uses anonymous sources to out someone out of spite though.


1. Provided they violated no laws to get his personal info, why can't they coerce him to remove the post?


Quote:
A person is guilty of coercion in the second degree when he or she compels or induces a person to engage in conduct which the latter has a legal right to abstain from engaging in, or to abstain from engaging in conduct in which he or she has a legal right to engage, or compels or induces a person to join a group, organization or criminal enterprise which such latter person has a right to abstain from joining, by means of instilling in him or her a fear that, if the demand is not complied with, the actor or another will:
1. Cause physical injury to a person;  or
2. Cause damage to property;  or
3. Engage in other conduct constituting a crime;  or
4. Accuse some person of a crime or cause criminal charges to be instituted against him or her;  or
5. Expose a secret or publicize an asserted fact, whether true or false, tending to subject some person to hatred, contempt or ridicule;  or
6. Cause a strike, boycott or other collective labor group action injurious to some person's business;  except that such a threat shall not be deemed coercive when the act or omission compelled is for the benefit of the group in whose interest the actor purports to act;  or
7. Testify or provide information or withhold testimony or information with respect to another's legal claim or defense;  or
8. Use or abuse his or her position as a public servant by performing some act within or related to his or her official duties, or by failing or refusing to perform an official duty, in such manner as to affect some person adversely;  or
9. Perform any other act which would not in itself materially benefit the actor but which is calculated to harm another person materially with respect to his or her health, safety, business, calling, career, financial condition, reputation or personal relationships.
Coercion in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.


EDIT: Kaczynski is based in New York, and presumably that is where he contacted this guy and intimidated him. And if the guy isn't in New York (or CNN didn't call him from New York):

Quote:
If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or

If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured—

They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.


That's why.

On top of the sketchy legality of their actions, it's just wrong for a major news conglomerate to do this.

Not thinking that this fits the situation, but won't disagree that it was all sketchy for CNN to do.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:54 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
1. Provided they violated no laws to get his personal info, why can't they coerce him to remove the post?
That part may be illegal and it certainly is wrong for a news organization to do it. There is a reason they "clarified" what they did with him a few times.

Peter Puck wrote:
2. Wrong, but not necessarily illegal. Not the best business practice. Newspapers act out of spite all the time.
Do newspapers act out of spite all the time on private citizens who aren't actively involved in news?


The thought originally was that the guy created the .gif. Since that was the original premise, then he was "actively in the news" whether he intended to be or not. That happens all the time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:55 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Legally CNN can doxx anyone they want. The coercion part they can't.

It is wrong for a news organization that uses anonymous sources to out someone out of spite though.


1. Provided they violated no laws to get his personal info, why can't they coerce him to remove the post?

2. Wrong, but not necessarily illegal. Not the best business practice. Newspapers act out of spite all the time.



...they're on a slippery slope for a "news organization" that relies on anonymous sources. Who could ever trust them? Let's say I get sideways with one of their reporters and now he's threatening me. No thanks.


I agree with this take.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:56 am 
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Peter Puck wrote:
The thought originally was that the guy created the .gif. Since that was the original premise, then he was "actively in the news" whether he intended to be or not. That happens all the time.
I even think that is a little bit of a stretch. If Donald Trump retweets your last post do you become a public figure?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
The thought originally was that the guy created the .gif. Since that was the original premise, then he was "actively in the news" whether he intended to be or not. That happens all the time.
I even think that is a little bit of a stretch. If Donald Trump retweets your last post do you become a public figure?

Yup!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Everything about this is a bad precedent. Using the if trump retweeted so and so example.... I think mostly everyone can agree to Chus being a good guy. If trump reposted any of his thoughts, should he personally stand trial for doing god's work in the NSFW forum many years ago. I say no.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:00 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
The thought originally was that the guy created the .gif. Since that was the original premise, then he was "actively in the news" whether he intended to be or not. That happens all the time.
I even think that is a little bit of a stretch. If Donald Trump retweets your last post do you become a public figure?

You are conflating 2 different things: "actively in the news" and "public figure." They are not identical.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:01 pm 
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Peter Puck wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
The thought originally was that the guy created the .gif. Since that was the original premise, then he was "actively in the news" whether he intended to be or not. That happens all the time.
I even think that is a little bit of a stretch. If Donald Trump retweets your last post do you become a public figure?

You are conflating 2 different things: "actively in the news" and "public figure." They are not identical.

If he isn't a public figure then outing him is wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:06 pm 
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He's got nothing to worry about. Its CNN, theyll identify the wrong guy for sure


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:07 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
He's got nothing to worry about. Its CNN, theyll identify the wrong guy for sure

They already did

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:37 pm 
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4Chan is going shock and awe flooding Mr. Kaczynski's family with calls and messages. I don't support this, but this also doesn't happen if KFile doesn't blackmail some poor guy who is the wrong target in the 1st place.

http://thehill.com/media/340888-cnn-rep ... dit-report

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:57 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
4Chan is going shock and awe flooding Mr. Kaczynski's family with calls and messages. I don't support this, but this also doesn't happen if KFile doesn't blackmail some poor guy who is the wrong target in the 1st place.

http://thehill.com/media/340888-cnn-rep ... dit-report


Doxxing someone is not a crime, telephone harassment is a crime. Not a smart group.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:04 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
4Chan is going shock and awe flooding Mr. Kaczynski's family with calls and messages. I don't support this, but this also doesn't happen if KFile doesn't blackmail some poor guy who is the wrong target in the 1st place.

http://thehill.com/media/340888-cnn-rep ... dit-report


Doxxing someone is not a crime, telephone harassment is a crime. Not a smart group.

The 4Chan types who do this are the type who are using Tor and VPN's. They are basically the same people who do Anonymous credited hacks.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
4Chan is going shock and awe flooding Mr. Kaczynski's family with calls and messages. I don't support this, but this also doesn't happen if KFile doesn't blackmail some poor guy who is the wrong target in the 1st place.

http://thehill.com/media/340888-cnn-rep ... dit-report


Doxxing someone is not a crime, telephone harassment is a crime. Not a smart group.

The 4Chan types who do this are the type who are using Tor and VPN's. They are basically the same people who do Anonymous credited hacks.


Ok. They are technologically adept but are not logically consistent.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:18 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
4Chan is going shock and awe flooding Mr. Kaczynski's family with calls and messages. I don't support this, but this also doesn't happen if KFile doesn't blackmail some poor guy who is the wrong target in the 1st place.

http://thehill.com/media/340888-cnn-rep ... dit-report


Doxxing someone is not a crime, telephone harassment is a crime. Not a smart group.

The 4Chan types who do this are the type who are using Tor and VPN's. They are basically the same people who do Anonymous credited hacks.


Ok. They are technologically adept but are not logically consistent.

I'm not saying that they are right (they aren't). I'm just saying they probably will get away with it as they have the means and know how to do this undetected.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Here is a deadspin blogger portraying the kfile guy as a martyr.

http://gizmodo.com/how-cnn-made-its-own ... 1796656983

The explanation provided in that link for why that statement of legalese was added makes zero sense


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