The state doesn't have any rights over my wife's body or children when she is pregnant.

_________________

The state has an interest. Whether that would qualify as legitimate or compelling I'm not sure, and probably depends on the question asked.

EDIT: or rational. I forget the exact terminology

If you want to get an abortion past a threshold set by the state and you cross that threshold you break the law. Once you break the law your liberty is in jeopardy.

If you don't think abortion should be legal under ANY circumstances then you are giving the state even greater power to deprive a person of their liberty.

_________________

That's not true at all. You're simply acknowledging that the fetus is a life worth protecting.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I wrote that because I thought it was safe to assume that a person who thinks life begins at conception would also approve of, or desire, an across the board ban on abortion.

If that wasn't made clear in my initial post I'm clarifying that now.

_________________

It's not safe to assume that.

There are rare instances where a mother's life is in jeopardy and she is faced with the decision to choose to give up her life and give birth, or protect her life.

_________________

I know what you are saying. I disagree with you. Like we've said, once you are pregnant it's no longer just your body. At that point you have a responsibility towards the life of the unborn child, imo.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I agree that a responsibility exists. I agree that at a certain point the state has an interest in protecting the life on an unborn child. I don't believe that a state's interest in protecting that life begins at conception.

Lastly, I am very curious to know why some advocates for small government are willing to make an exception on this issue.

_________________

There's no hypocrisy here, so I really don't understand your small government angle. It simply comes down to if you believe the unborn child deserves protection under the law or not.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'll go the other way though and suggest it is hypocritical of anyone saying "the government shouldn't have control over our bodies" unless they are also saying all drugs should be legal as well as prostitution(assuming we are talking about adults obviously).

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

So you and I disagree about where the line between the state's interest in preserving life and an individual's interest in personal autonomy should be drawn.

_________________

Is a zygote a child?

_________________

It's on it's way to being one.

You said you agree the state has a responsibly towards unborn children. What do you think that responsibility entails?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The answer to that from many is likely: "if it's human".

I think there's a more interesting discussion to be had about why human life is more precious than any other life. Is that simply the arrogance of man? This should be a tough question for atheists. Is it all arbitrary? If man is not created by God in his own image why is a human life more important than the life of a cow? Simply because we are the top predator?

Here's an interesting lecture that touches on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqm6_qsYotQ

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Deterring the killing of unborn children by taking away the liberty of those that kill them. If you're going to make me draw a line, I'd say that the state's interest in protecting an unborn life begins when the fetus has the ability to survive outside the womb. Any earlier than that and you're granting the state too much power over the individual.

Where do you draw your line? If your line is drawn where Seacrest's is, how so you gel it with it your libertarian ideals?

_________________

I draw the line at conception I guess. Pregnancies should never be terminated except to save the life of the mother or in cases of rape, in my opinion.

It's very easy to square this belief with being a libertarian. I believe abortion is infringing on the rights of the unborn child. I'm not an anarchist. I do think a government should have some responsibilities. i can't think of a more important one than ensuring lives are not ended needlessly.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

This is where all discussions about abortion inevitably end up. When do we become human? I don't remember living inside the womb. I don't remember being born. I don't have any memories prior to age 3 or 4. I don't think I had a conception that my own existence was independent of other people's for some years after that. If I died before I formed my first memory when did "I" exist?

I didn't plan on getting all "whoa dude" here but it has been a strange day.

_________________

So why qualify it with " rape" or " incest" or the mothers "health" an unborn child has no say in such matters. Only "sometimes" you feel it is worth protecting and abortion is unethical?

_________________

If a mother can murder a baby at 23 weeks then why do we care what she does at 25 weeks? The government should protect babies from being shredded at any point in their development. The process of an abortion is violent and so inhumane that we would lock anyone up for life if they did that to anyone besides government approved babies.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Well with the mother's life being in danger that's an easy one. Of course she should be allowed to live. With rape I think the mother is already going to be severely emotionally damaged, making her give birth to her rapist's child does not seem like a sound policy. But there's no easy answer there. But both of these scenarios are such a small percentage of abortions that I don't think they are really even worthy of discussion.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

But you've already said that a zygote has the potential to be a child. If a zygote has only reached the "potential to be a child" state, then by your own definition a zygote is not a child. If you're aborting a zygote then you're not infringing on the rights of an unborn child because it hasn't even reached that stage yet.

_________________

You wouldn't even know that you're pregnant.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Sure you are. An abortion is definitely infringing on that. Without the abortion that is going to be a child barring miscarriage.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

There are states that the rapist gets visitation, I was just picking your brain, Imo it's a woman's decision, I don't believe a guy should have any say in the matter.. I bet if most of the anti choicers were women, they'd do a 180.

_________________

Is a zygote a child?

_________________

Well, guys necessarily have to have a say in the matter, unless you believe all governmental bodies should be made up of exclusively women.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Yes

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

This is where my disconnect comes in. I can't understand how you would be comfortable with the state taking away the liberty of an existing human for choosing to terminate the life of a potential human.

_________________

We are just repeating ourselves at this point but the state isn't taking away any liberties if they said that pregnant women aren't allowed to abort their unborn children.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Intentionally terminating a life is murder in every other situation. Women and cops get special privileges. Totally unfair!

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!