Obviously, his ERA has been better than an average pitcher over the course of his career. But the heart of the disagreement is the idea- repeated ad nauseam in recent years- that "a pitcher's job is to prevent runs". As if it's just that simple and said pitcher's performance somehow exists in a netherworld completely divorced from the game in which it occurred.

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With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

You stated that Quintana lacks "run support" no matter where he is, whether it's the Cubs or Sox. And yet, with the Cubs, he has gotten run support of 8, 5, and 1. There is no other explanation other than that you are basing his Cubs "run support" on a single game... unless you think 8 and 5 are bad run support? Beyond that, he has no control over his "run support" anyway.

And where are you getting that that it is an anti-Cub thing? You took sideswipes at the Cubs in your response, but I never said your argument about Quintana is an anti-Cub one. I think it's more a byproduct of your obsession with wins and losses, even in very small sample sizes.

And to your last question, yes, the Brewers offense is superior to the Cubs, as has been shown throughout the entire year. Is that some sort of gotcha? I don't recall every being willing to admit that teams are better than the Cubs at some things.

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Maybe you'll be luckier than "Poor Jose" and you'll be able to find some games where the Cubs score ten runs and you can transfer his "compartmentalized performances" to those games to give him a winning record.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

What does this mean? What idea are you trying to convey, here?

No I didn't. I don't think "run support" exists. "Run support" is nothing more than the runs allowed by Brent Suter when he's beating Jose Quintana 2-1.



No, he has control over the opposing pitcher's "run support".



I'm no more "obsessed" with W/L percentage than Juice is with fWAR. I just think it's a valuable stat that tells you a lot about who a starting pitcher is.



I don't believe you really do think the Brewers offense is superior to the Cubs'. I certainly don't. Put it this way- if you're a starting pitcher looking for "support" from an offense, are you taking the Cub lineup or the Brewers?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Then why does run support predict so much of winning percentage? More so than other measures of a pitcher's ability?

The events that occurred in last night's game don't exist in any other context except that game. All the performances are only relative to the other events that occurred within that game. In a general sense, allowing 2 runs over six innings may be a "good" performance. But in a game where the opposing pitcher is allowing 0 runs over the same period, it's not really great.

Now, I understand that your position is that if a man goes out and allows two runs over six innings every time he has done fine work and that work will likely end up yielding positive results that will be reflected in his W/L record. That's a perfectly reasonable position. But it's not always that way. And there are plenty of reasons to believe that it's not just a matter of "luck".

The excuse for Quintana was always that he was let down by the shitty White Sox. Well, he no longer has that excuse. He is now "supported" by Team King Kong. Let's see how it works out. I'm guessing he will manage to seize defeat from the jaws of victory only minimally less often than he did for the White Sox.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Because the team that scores more runs usually wins.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

No, not runs scored per total game, per start. When the starting pitcher is actually in the game. If run support truly "doesn't exist" or didn't really matter as far as a pitcher winning any given game, we would expect to see no correlation between a starting pitcher's run support and the amount of times he we "wins" a game. Since one of the variables either doesn't actually exist or doesn't matter. Except we do, and the predictive ability of this "nonexistent" stat is stronger than any other single element.

I'm not sure what the following statement means then, particularly since Quintana is 2-1 with the Cubs and has gotten ample run support overall.



...



It doesn't matter. The game is just a matchup between two starting pitchers with offenses that are irrelevant in the outcome of the game.

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I understand exactly what you mean. Stop, take a deep breath, and really think about what you're saying. If a team scores a lot of runs while a particular pitcher is in the game, of course it's going to have a favorable effect on his winning percentage.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

So run support does matter. Glad we're in agreement.

You're going at this as if it's a three game sample. It isn't. It's 174 starts.



The offenses aren't irrelevant. But I guarantee you can't tell the difference between Bryzzo and Yolmer Sanchez and Tyler Saladino within the space of a single game. And if Kershaw is facing Bryzzo and John Lackey is facing Sanchez and Saladino chances are the latter pair are going to be better in that game.

Finally, I've made enough posts detailing my feelings about "run support" that my sarcasm should be pretty obvious. I apologize if you missed that. I do realize not everyone hangs on my every word.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Runs matter. "Run support" is just what was allowed by a guy who pitched better than you did.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

So just to be clear, Cub fans should be upset with Quintana for giving up 2 runs?

So it's not that the Dodgers and Nationals are good at offense, they just happen to face bad pitchers all the time when Kershaw and Scherzer are on the mound?

Cubs fans should be upset because their team lost. This is something that happens more times than not when Quintana starts over his career.

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[list=][/list]For every game hard luck Quintana loses for lack of run support are we also supposed to expect that his defense will also make leaping grabs at the wall preventing 2 run homers? Or is that part expected but when his offense only scores 1 run that it's their fault he lost .

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It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Was that a yes or no?

Of course it has. The vast majority of starters from teams with bad offenses, bad defense, & poor bullpen pitching like the Sox from 2013-present would have sub par W-L records. On a team that's better in those areas and with his current pitching ability, he'll be the same pitcher but with a better W-L record. It's not that complicated.

Not upset. Just don't be surprised when Quintana is 12-13.

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There is a pitcher who started close to the same amount of games on the same awful Sox teams that posted a .600 winning percentage. Evidently, it IS that complicated for MANY.

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Not yet. Still got some work to do.

And becoming a complete embarrassment is a trend Theo started so might not wanna go down that road

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This is a great point. That pitcher with a 600 winning percentage left the sox and now has a .750 winning percentage.

Also worth noting Quintana currently has. .666 winning percentage for the Cubs.

What changed where these pitchers suddenly started winning a higher percentage of games.

...while receiving 3.43 runs per start compared to Quintana's 2.75.

Sale got 3 runs or more of support (while in the game and thus eligible for the win) in 52.7% of his starts. Quintana got 3+ runs of support 43% of the time.

Sale got 4 runs or more of support in 42.5% of his starts, Quintana only 30%.

Run support while in the game explains a little more than 60% of W/%.

So it's ALL run support and not the pitcher?

Turd, it's been 3 starts for Q on the Cubs. Say he gets 60 starts over the next years for the Cubs. He won't be above a .500 W-L record.

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How about sale though. Did he become better in red?

YES or NO

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Adults are trying to talk, Frank.

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