All stats are "made up". You're conflating the team's record with the pitcher's record. They're obviously not the same thing. Don't be purposely obtuse.

And it tells you a whole lot about how the starting pitcher performed in that game because his performance is irrelevant outside the context of the games he pitches. If a guy always pitches worse than the other pitchers in the games he pitches, how fucking good could he be?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

If you were twice as smart as you think you are, you might qualify as an idiot.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Absolutely no better than Jose Quintana.

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No they're not. I can see a home run. The ball went over the fence. I can see a double the batter ended up on 2B. I can see a run scored because he crossed home plate etc. You can't see a pitchers win because it didn't happen. It doesn't exist.

Joe is getting slammed in here. Frank, this is one ship you don't want to go down with. Let him drown alone. #Sad.

You cannot see these things from certain seats in Wrigley Field.

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https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... atio::none

Check out that XBH % and LD %.

Do you believe that pop-ups and line drives have the same chances of turning into outs?

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Gentleman, I would politely like to ask that you remove this conversation from the Cubs 2017 transactions and rumors thread. Thank you kindly. Have a blessed day.

Now about this Sonny Gray trade. They'd have to give up some combination of Almora/Carantini and a minor leaguer right?

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I can see a man pitch five innings plus and exit the game with the lead.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

And then the next pitcher in gives up that lead and your pitcher now has no documentation of ever having pitched in that game. He wasn't good enough to get the win. If he were that good, he would have gone 9.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

A's would move on to the off season if this was the best they could do

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I don't think so. You're the one walking through life thinking Jeff Samardzija and Jose Quintana are great pitchers. You have to live with that.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Why 5 innings? Who decided on that and why? Why not 4 innings? How about 6 or 1 or 9? 5 innings is an arbitrary number of innings.

Obviously, I'm not going to argue that the five innings is anything other than arbitrary. If I had to guess I would say it was established as five innings since that's an official game, which would make it somewhat less arbitrary than you suggest, though- I acknowledge- arbitrary nonetheless.

I'd have no problem if you wanted to develop a stat of your own that would be superior in detailing how well a pitcher actually competed in the games he pitched. I don't believe it would be impossible to come up with such a thing. However, ERA, WHIP, fWAR, etc. don't do that.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Baseball curmudgeon JoRR strikes again.

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Lackey's "quality' start yesterday not doing enough for you JORR? No, me neither!

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Hawaii (fuck) You

I don't know what that means. Are we trying to get the right answers or just beat each other over the head until everyone admits that Javy Vazquez was better than Mark Buehrle?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

This is one of the worst posts you have ever made. Just terrible.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

That's your post in support of the Subdivision? I mean I know baseball isn't your bag but these guys need some backup. At least try to refute it.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I shouldn't need to waste my time refuting it. You know how bad it is already. I'll simply point out that there have been some all time great running backs who were terrible at receiving so your entire premise of all stats matter is false. But beyond that, you know you can't beat Jorr in a W/L argument so you need to resort to applying his argument to relievers when he's consistently maintained it's only useful SPs and given clear explanations for why that is the case.

If you think you're such a smarter baseball mind than jorr than argue what he is saying, not what you wanted him to say.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The point is that a stat that can only be used for certain pitchers, in arbitrary situations, and that 8-9 other teammates have as much (or more) of an effect on is a flawed statistic.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

The arbitrary argument is a bad one. By that logic almost everything in baseball is arbitrary(HR line fences, etc).

But yeah, his teammates affect W/L. Teammates have an an effect on many stats, from QB rating to assists. That doesn't invalidate the statistic.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

If there are twenty ways to accurately gauge a pitcher's performance while he is on the bump, and then one extremely flawed one that the starting pitcher only has a 33% effect on (pitchers only play half the game, and usually only 6 innings [66%] of that half) ... Yes, the last one is invalidated. Especially when one tries to use it to discount the actual statistics.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

But this is wrong. W/L isn't a flawed statistic inherently. All stats can be flawed when used improperly though.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

If you are talking about one game, or hell maybe even a month's worth of starts, it can be "invalidated." The crux of this whole argument is Jose Quintana. When you have a guy that has 170+ big league starts, you can absolutely start to draw accurate conclusions about him based solely on his W-L record.

I used to be in complete disagreement with JOrr on Q. However having watched him make his last ~60 starts on a really bad baseball team, its very clear that the guy will never be a dominant force on the mound or a winner. I think his absolute high water mark would be a .510 win %. Now that doesn't make him a "bad" pitcher, and he certainly isn't a pitcher that will prevent you from winning a Division or a Pennant either. He is what he is. He is a .500 pitcher for a reason.

The people who come off as really dumb are the ones who completely dismiss W-L as flawed, and just throw those numbers away. Blatantly ignoring a specific-- and rather large-- set of career numbers is a foolish way to evaluate a guy.

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Are you arguing that Samardzija is unluckier this season or that he is getting hit harder? It's hard to tell.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

It is flawed. It judges one player when he only contributes 33% to that result. Additionally, a pitcher pitches to hitters. Not one single portion of W/L shows how a pitcher fared in that.

It is easy to tell. It is all in the numbers.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Ted Lily, the .500 pitcher who suddenly went 44-26 after signing with the Cubs.

In one specific game, sure this might be the case.

Over the course of 100, 200, 300 career starts, its flawed to ignore the W-L record.

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