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Curious Hair
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:50 pm 
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I can't imagine getting this bent out of shape over having to read a beach book for 45 minutes until a judge comes and tells you not to bother because they settled the case on the steps or the guy didn't show up.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:52 pm 
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In NY, I was given a number. I was around 1840 and the last group of numbers they called on Friday was 1600. I basically just had to check a website every night.

I was happy because I don't have time during the day to hear arguments.

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Ogie Oglethorpe
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
No it isn't. The second part is saying if Ogie honestly can't serve impartially and is honest about it he's good. You're saying he has a civic duty to serve impartially.
I'm aware he can make that choice. I'm saying it is wrong to do so and it makes him no different than a profiling cop.

The system works because people are willing to serve and serve as best they can without bias. Ogie seems quite proud of the fact that he wouldn't even try and do this.

I never said he should be jailed for what he is doing. I just said he is failing as a citizen to give his fellow Americans the best chance at a fair trial.

If I were to be questioned as part of jury selection and said anything other than what I have typed in this thread, I would be perjuring myself.

Well, luckily others are willing to attempt to set aside their biases in order to give someone a fair trial. I don't know why you feel so proud that you aren't willing to do so.

Probably because the testimony the trial rests upon depends upon the belief that the institution that did the investigation itself is just and fair. Given that I have seen enough examples to question that, I cannot accept the testimony and evidence provided as fact. I think that's a fair argument to raise. If I don't trust the police who investigated and gathered evidence and are then on the stand to be honest, then I cannot serve on the trial. I do not trust law enforcement officers and I think there is a plethora of information to support this.

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long time guy
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
How can one sit on a jury where the prosecutions case is dependent upon police testimony if I don't believe the cop? It's an honest statement and I think we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg when it comes to police brutality and corruption. Just imagine all that goes on which isn't picked up by cameras, especially since the scumbags are resisting the use of body cams at every turn and don't have them on most of the time when they are being worn.
The problem is that you are saying "All Cops". Even if only one cop is a good person who is truthful you are not being fair if they happened to be the one who was involved. No American should go into a trial with a preconceived notion about any group and that includes police.

As I said, imagine if you were saying this about a minority group. Would you be any different than a profiling cop?

A minority is someone born into a race or ethnicity.

A cop is someone who willingly signed up for a job. That is a false equivilency.

If there are good cops,then I'm waiting for them to stand up and speak out against the abuses they, their colleagues, and their unions are pushing for. Cops need to denounce no-knock raids for low level drug offenses, civil asset forfeiture, writing citations for purpose of generating revenue politicians can't otherwise ask for, the abuse of the 4th Amendment, the improper use of force, etc. Cops aren't speaking up against this. By and large, they and their criminal organization (FOP) are pushing for more of this. If cops want to take a stand against these measures, then I will change my view on the profession.

As it stands they are an increasingly militant group that is becoming adversarial with the populace they are supposed to protect and serve.

To be fair, there are good cops who fit this description. It's not as if it's 100% of them.

But the cheering by a large crowd of cops for Trump's latest comments was yet another sign that it's also not a few bad apples either. There's clearly institutional problems there.

I agree that it's a false equivalency comparing race to job choice.
There are a few good cops, but it seems as an institution, most cops support these abuses. Frequent statements from the FOP and other police groups would back this assertion up. Just look at how they idolize the likes of Sheriff David Clarke in Milwaukee. He represents everything wrong with policing in this country and he's a hero to most cops.



Years ago I read the Serpico book which provided insight into police corruption and culture. Those that ignore corruption are tacit endorsers of it in many respects. It's twofold once you factor in the responsibility that police officers have in regards to "serve and protect". I don't believe that the overwhelming number of police officers are necessarily crooked but I do believe that the overwhelming majority turn a blind's eye when it comes to abuse and corruption.

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Ogie Oglethorpe
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:58 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
How can one sit on a jury where the prosecutions case is dependent upon police testimony if I don't believe the cop? It's an honest statement and I think we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg when it comes to police brutality and corruption. Just imagine all that goes on which isn't picked up by cameras, especially since the scumbags are resisting the use of body cams at every turn and don't have them on most of the time when they are being worn.
The problem is that you are saying "All Cops". Even if only one cop is a good person who is truthful you are not being fair if they happened to be the one who was involved. No American should go into a trial with a preconceived notion about any group and that includes police.

As I said, imagine if you were saying this about a minority group. Would you be any different than a profiling cop?

A minority is someone born into a race or ethnicity.

A cop is someone who willingly signed up for a job. That is a false equivilency.

If there are good cops,then I'm waiting for them to stand up and speak out against the abuses they, their colleagues, and their unions are pushing for. Cops need to denounce no-knock raids for low level drug offenses, civil asset forfeiture, writing citations for purpose of generating revenue politicians can't otherwise ask for, the abuse of the 4th Amendment, the improper use of force, etc. Cops aren't speaking up against this. By and large, they and their criminal organization (FOP) are pushing for more of this. If cops want to take a stand against these measures, then I will change my view on the profession.

As it stands they are an increasingly militant group that is becoming adversarial with the populace they are supposed to protect and serve.

To be fair, there are good cops who fit this description. It's not as if it's 100% of them.

But the cheering by a large crowd of cops for Trump's latest comments was yet another sign that it's also not a few bad apples either. There's clearly institutional problems there.

I agree that it's a false equivalency comparing race to job choice.
There are a few good cops, but it seems as an institution, most cops support these abuses. Frequent statements from the FOP and other police groups would back this assertion up. Just look at how they idolize the likes of Sheriff David Clarke in Milwaukee. He represents everything wrong with policing in this country and he's a hero to most cops.



Years ago I read the Serpico book which provided insight into police corruption and culture. Those that ignore corruption are tacit endorsers of it in many respects. It's twofold once you factor in the responsibility that police officers have in regards to "serve and protect". I don't believe that the overwhelming number of police officers are necessarily crooked but I do believe that the overwhelming majority turn a blind's eye when it comes to abuse and corruption.

In cases like this, silence makes them complicit in the abuses and crimes. Just look at how almost any complaint against a cop gets swept under the rug unless there is a video that goes viral online forcing action.

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Frank Coztansa
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:00 pm 
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Trials are not always Cops vs Normal Citizen. I would hope we all could be as impartial as possible in cases that do not the police.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Probably because the testimony the trial rests upon depends upon the belief that the institution that did the investigation itself is just and fair. Given that I have seen enough examples to question that, I cannot accept the testimony and evidence provided as fact. I think that's a fair argument to raise. If I don't trust the police who investigated and gathered evidence and are then on the stand to be honest, then I cannot serve on the trial. I do not trust law enforcement officers and I think there is a plethora of information to support this.
This is not something to be proud of.

However, I guess it's probably best that you never serve on a jury. Luckily, others are willing to try and be unbiased.

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Curious Hair
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:04 pm 
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Anyone who tries to weasel out of jury duty by doing NYERRRRG AM I BEING DETAINED crap should have to do some sort of alternative service, like groping guys as they walk through the metal detector.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:06 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Trials are not always Cops vs Normal Citizen. I would hope we all could be as impartial as possible in cases that do not the police.

Exactly. I'd understand if he was unable to be involved with a trial involving a cop.

He wouldn't be willing to sit on a vehicular manslaughter case because a cop showed up on the scene afterwards.

It's a disservice to those who hope they would get a fair trial.

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Ogie Oglethorpe
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:06 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Trials are not always Cops vs Normal Citizen. I would hope we all could be as impartial as possible in cases that do not the police.

just about any criminal trial will rest upon evidence presented by police.

Remember, OJ was acquitted because of lack of trust for police. If I'm on the jury (knowing he probably did it) I vote to acquit as how can I trust the testimony of the police who gathered the evidence? Heck, that is why he got acquitted and I can't fault that jury one bit. There are a lot of Mark Fuhrman's in law enforcement. Heck they still lionize him.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Trials are not always Cops vs Normal Citizen. I would hope we all could be as impartial as possible in cases that do not the police.

just about any criminal trial will rest upon evidence presented by police.

Remember, OJ was acquitted because of lack of trust for police. If I'm on the jury (knowing he probably did it) I vote to acquit as how can I trust the testimony of the police who gathered the evidence? Heck, that is why he got acquitted and I can't fault that jury one bit. There are a lot of Mark Fuhrman's in law enforcement. Heck they still lionize him.
If everyone did that then it sure would solve the prison overpopulation issues too!

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Ogie Oglethorpe
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:11 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Trials are not always Cops vs Normal Citizen. I would hope we all could be as impartial as possible in cases that do not the police.

just about any criminal trial will rest upon evidence presented by police.

Remember, OJ was acquitted because of lack of trust for police. If I'm on the jury (knowing he probably did it) I vote to acquit as how can I trust the testimony of the police who gathered the evidence? Heck, that is why he got acquitted and I can't fault that jury one bit. There are a lot of Mark Fuhrman's in law enforcement. Heck they still lionize him.
If everyone did that then it sure would solve the prison overpopulation issues too!

I could raise a strong argument that much of policing is done to support the prison industrial complex, which is very real. Do you think our incarceration rate is something to be proud of? It's the result of the very overzealous policing I despise.

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beni hanna
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I was happy because I don't have time during the day to hear arguments.


Well done sir.
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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
I could raise a strong argument that much of policing is done to support the prison industrial complex, which is very real. Do you think our incarceration rate is something to be proud of? It's the result of the very overzealous policing I despise.
Shots fired at shakes!

Lots of unemployed lawyers too. Murder rate may go up though.

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Ogie Oglethorpe
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:46 pm 
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on the subject of trusting evidence/testimony from police.

http://reason.com/blog/2017/07/31/balti ... inal-cases

This only came to light because one of the cops in question was very sloppy. Incidents like this are very widespread and usually slip through the cracks.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Probably because the testimony the trial rests upon depends upon the belief that the institution that did the investigation itself is just and fair. Given that I have seen enough examples to question that, I cannot accept the testimony and evidence provided as fact. I think that's a fair argument to raise. If I don't trust the police who investigated and gathered evidence and are then on the stand to be honest, then I cannot serve on the trial. I do not trust law enforcement officers and I think there is a plethora of information to support this.
This is not something to be proud of..

Seems principled
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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:55 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Probably because the testimony the trial rests upon depends upon the belief that the institution that did the investigation itself is just and fair. Given that I have seen enough examples to question that, I cannot accept the testimony and evidence provided as fact. I think that's a fair argument to raise. If I don't trust the police who investigated and gathered evidence and are then on the stand to be honest, then I cannot serve on the trial. I do not trust law enforcement officers and I think there is a plethora of information to support this.
This is not something to be proud of..

Seems principled

What would happen if everyone was that principled?

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ToxicMasculinity
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:54 pm 
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I feel like some posters here are going to be the next sovereign citizen filming their traffic stop for a simple violation. They start screaming about the Magna Carta, or being a corporation or Moor.

Scene ends with a long enjoyable tasing.

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redskingreg
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:59 pm 
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I was on a jury once. 2-week murder trial. It was horrible timing with my personal life. I would never serve again.

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SpiralStairs
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:07 pm 
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ToxicMasculinity wrote:
I feel like some posters here are going to be the next sovereign citizen filming their traffic stop for a simple violation. They star screaming about the Magna Carta, or being a corporation or Moor.

Scene ends with a long enjoyable tasing.


Image

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ToxicMasculinity
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:25 pm 
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redskingreg wrote:
I was on a jury once. 2-week murder trial. It was horrible timing with my personal life. I would never serve again.


2 weeks? Easy decision? What did he do? Come on give some gory details

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Ogie Oglethorpe
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Probably because the testimony the trial rests upon depends upon the belief that the institution that did the investigation itself is just and fair. Given that I have seen enough examples to question that, I cannot accept the testimony and evidence provided as fact. I think that's a fair argument to raise. If I don't trust the police who investigated and gathered evidence and are then on the stand to be honest, then I cannot serve on the trial. I do not trust law enforcement officers and I think there is a plethora of information to support this.
This is not something to be proud of..

Seems principled

What would happen if everyone was that principled?

Police would have to change how they do conduct themselves as few of their cases would lead to convictions.

or police can keep on doing things as they have been and I'll just shrug my shoulders when the next Dallas happens. If that's what it takes for them to wake up, then so be it. They keep pushing citizens and wonder why some of them snap and target cops.

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redskingreg
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:52 pm 
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ToxicMasculinity wrote:
redskingreg wrote:
I was on a jury once. 2-week murder trial. It was horrible timing with my personal life. I would never serve again.


2 weeks? Easy decision? What did he do? Come on give some gory details


She had her baby in a bathroom stall, stuffed in a bag then threw him in the trash. Hung jury. Think she took a plea deal before it went to trial agai.

All this while my old lady was pregnant with our first child. So, yeah, baby autopsy pictures are something I will never unsee

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Furious Styles
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Duty's nothing. It's like sales tax.

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Douchebag
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Furious Styles wrote:
Duty's nothing. It's like sales tax.

:lol: :lol:

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Caller Bob
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:25 pm 
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redskingreg wrote:
ToxicMasculinity wrote:
redskingreg wrote:
I was on a jury once. 2-week murder trial. It was horrible timing with my personal life. I would never serve again.


2 weeks? Easy decision? What did he do? Come on give some gory details


She had her baby in a bathroom stall, stuffed in a bag then threw him in the trash. Hung jury. Think she took a plea deal before it went to trial agai.


I'm assuming the charge was reduced to assault considering Frank actually lived.
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shakes
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Probably because the testimony the trial rests upon depends upon the belief that the institution that did the investigation itself is just and fair. Given that I have seen enough examples to question that, I cannot accept the testimony and evidence provided as fact. I think that's a fair argument to raise. If I don't trust the police who investigated and gathered evidence and are then on the stand to be honest, then I cannot serve on the trial. I do not trust law enforcement officers and I think there is a plethora of information to support this.
This is not something to be proud of..

Seems principled

What would happen if everyone was that principled?


If everyone believed what Ogie believed we wouldn't have cops anymore. Good or bad, if everyone believed that we would have a new system of law enforcement.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Or (most) lawyers!

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shakes
 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Trials are not always Cops vs Normal Citizen. I would hope we all could be as impartial as possible in cases that do not the police.


Just as many biases when it come to civil cases as criminal cases.


Lots of people are too biased to serve impartially on a civil trial.

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 Post subject: Re: Jury duty
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
How can one sit on a jury where the prosecutions case is dependent upon police testimony if I don't believe the cop?


Every case is dependent on police testimony?

You're a know it all with all the wrong answers, the day you are knowledgeable about 10% of the bullshit you shovel will be a minor miracle.
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