Let the board speak.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Butler. It's close

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'll need to know if both players are guarding the guy they're supposed to or they're switching off like cowards. I hear that's very important.

It's easier if you ascertain which one garnered more in a trade. It's also more important. I've been told that it's also important if giants of scribe like Hoops Hypes weighs in first. We must first get their thoughts before proceeding.

_________________

Wtf... Kyrie by a truckload of cum

Butler is an overachiever.

Kyrie is better and he's an underacheiver.

Huge difference.

Kyrie can do things Butler only dreams about while his girlfriend gets rammed by a dude with an actual big dick.

_________________
the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

Kyrie > Jimmy. Not close.

I’m going to be a Kyrie hater for a while but if I would probably take Kyrie over Butler unless I had someone else on my team that was a great scorer.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Kyrie.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

_________________
You never miss your wealth, till your well went dry
Seem like only yesterday, you were here smiling
Now you gone away, but I know you in a better place
No traces of you, what can I do?
Alone and confused

Kyrie Irving.

_________________

player Irving.......team mate Butler

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

That's a horrible opinion to have. Context, GM abilities, market, timing, team needs, etc all affect trades. You can't look at them in a vacuum and say so and so is better because he got more in trade.

_________________

Yes you can it's easy. Ainge turned the trade for Butler. Paxson asked for less and he still turned it down.

Your value as a player is more often determined by what you bring in a trade. I'd rather base it on things like that rather which person has more rings or which person's team has the better record.

In this case Irving has been regarded as the better player at every stage of their career. Not even close.

Now he brought back more in trade. What else more is there. When they were on the same Olympic team Butler was a ninth man Irving was one of their better players.


Butler is a better defender but if that is as important as people here keep saying then guys like Harden Curry and Thomas would never finish at the top of MVP voting.

Jimmy Butler doesn't have one skill offensively that's better than Kyrie Irving. Not one.

_________________

I'm not arguing one way or the other regarding the 2 players, I'm just pointing out that using what they received in trade is an idiotic and completely inaccurate and flawed way to evaluate which player is better.

I could go into the myriad of reasons why (and I touched on many of them already), but they should all be very obvious to anyone with a working brain.

_________________

Ok hopefully your brain is working. Gms don't make trades based on market. That's dumb. A player may sign because of market Gms don't trade because of it. GM ability is also not a reliable metric because what the hell does it even mean? Koby Altman didn't get a better deal because of any great skill. That's dumb since no one knows if he is skilled. As far as timing that's dumb too since both were moved around the same time and Boston passed on Butler. When he finally was traded the Bulls didn't get much according to people here. People bashed Paxson and wrongfully presumed that he could have acquired a better player. I am using this particular interest because they were traded during the same off season.

The salaries and contract situation of each was similar too.

I'm not talking in general. I'm talking specifically these two. Can you do it in all cases no. In this case yes. General assumptions about trades don't apply in this situation.

_________________

Boston passed on Butler and George this offseason because they knew they would sign Hayward. Everyone knows that. Boston tried to give the Bulls draft picks for Butler at the trade deadline but the Bulls literally insisted on getting guys that Boston needed for a playoff run.

If Kyrie is better than Butler or George it's not by much.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Maybe not in George's case but he is definitively better than Butler. I don't think Butler will make another All Star team. The Wrongful perception of Irving changes this season. I watched a lot of Bad basketball with Cleveland his first 3 seasons. One thing I got out of it is that he is a difference maker. That team was shitty as hell. This is a different ball game now. He thinks he is good and now he will get a chance to show it. No excuses now. I'd take him over George too but it would be closer as you stated.

_________________

Is this a bit? No one can honestly be this stupid, right?


I don't think you understand what market means. The market means who is available etc. You don't think that makes a difference in terms of what people get in trades?

You don't think GM ability makes a difference? You think all GMs are equal and all get the same exact value for their players?

You really going to sit there with a straight face and say the timing was the same for both trades? One took place before the 2017 draft, one took place 2 months after. How is that "around the same time"?



Also, Boston had the most to offer of any team so any team that was able to unload a star to Boston was going to get the most back most likely. Boston had no interest in Butler for the reasons Nas listed as well as the reason that they didn't want to trade a 2017 pick. Kyrie wasn't even on the market at that time so wasn't an option. So Boston didn't want Butler but wanted Kyrie. I bet you think that is evidence that Kyrie is better than Butler since that's the kind of ignorant moron you are. Never mind the fact that Boston didn't want ANY FA SF since they were signing Hayward and also have Brown and now Tatum. But, they also have a 5'9 PG that is in line for a big contract who they don't want to sign. so they definitely were interested in getting a PG like Kyrie.

Those are just a few of the MANY factors that point out how its completely flawed to say player X is better than player Y based on what they got back in trade.

LTG what do you do for a living? I am honestly curious. I can't imagine you have any sort of job that requires a college education based on how stupid your thoughts are.

_________________

Savage

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

You are sitting here talking about market as if it's some sort of revelatory factor. Jimmy Butler was on the market for about a year. There wasn't the type of "market" for him that many here believed that there was. All of the hypothetical trades had him going for 2 lottery picks. Paxson was an idiot because he couldn't get much for him. Mind you his value as a player was determined by what other Gms not Paxson thought of him. In the end they didn't think much of him.

People on here continued to speculate about hoe he could have extracted all of these assets for him. At no point did you with your wise ass ever refute any of it. I never heard you make one comment about what the "market" was for Butler.

As far as "market" goes shouldn't Irving's market have been depressed dumbass? After all he demanded a trade and there was no way that Cleveland was going to bring him back.

As far as "market" goes he was traded for exactly what I thought he'd be traded for. Read the thread dumbass. All Star player Starter and a draft pick. I was on the money.

No one knew if Hayward would come and besides wouldn't Boston rather have "Top 10 Jimmy Butler" over Hayward?Hayward was a free agent guy but they still had to move guys to bring him in. One of the guys Bradley was a guy that could have gone in a trade for Butler.

If you don't think that demand ever plays a part in trades then you are an idiot. When Irving hit the "market" there were all types of demand for him. Where was "Butler's".?


I'm not going to get into the personal stuff because it's irrelevant to this particular discussion. I will let your idiot ass speculate about what I do for a living. I will simply state that I have a pretty good occupation and I'm very well educated. You can take from that what you wish asshole.

_________________

This place is one big excuse making factory. Whenever shit doesn't go the way prognosticators/experts believe it's going to go they flood the joint with excuses.

It's cool to get it wrong sometimes. At every step another contingency is added. Paxson didn't have to move Butler either. Thats is the other part of it. If he'd offered Butler straight up for Irving Cleveland would have passed because they don't value him as much as you or the other Butler lovers do.

_________________

Irving's market wasn't depressed because it happened at the perfect storm of the team with the most assets just happened to be desperate to get rid of their own star who played the exact same position, is 4 years older, smaller and in need of a big FA contract after the season.


Everything you just posted is beyond stupid and not worthy of further reply.


I think the masses will agree that I owned you in this debate.

_________________

Ousmane Dembele is a better soccer player than Messi and Ronaldo because Barcelona paid a higher transfer fee for him than either of those two ever commanded.

You could've just said that Jimmy Butler is a much better player than Paul George based on LTGs method of evaluating trades. Afterall they were traded around the same time and even play the same position, but the Bulls got a much better return for Butler than the Pacers got for George.


Case closed, LTG believes that Butler is a much better player than George and anything he says to refute that will just paint him as a massive hypocrite.

_________________

Ok. So the GM that infamously is reluctant to trade things that he considers assets all of a sudden trades one and it has nothing to do with the guy being traded. For what it's worth most people believe Ainge got taken and he still made the move. At the end of the day Irving went for more because he was considered to be better than Butler. Ainge didn't have to make a move. Cleveland had a gun to its head not him.

Butler went in a trade where the best player may be best suited for a 6th man role and you are talking about relatively.

_________________

The Pacers allegedly turned down better trades for George than what they received. They also didn't want to trade George. The Bulls have actively been seeking to trade Butler and people here blamed Paxson for not acquiring more. Where were you when all this was going down? Where was all of this nuance then hypothetical Harry?

_________________

No player is ever better than any other player but you complain when Paxson passes on Gobert to select Snell? It's all relative remember. That is the sort of thinking that makes you think Gorgui Dieng can be the centerpiece in a trade for Irving.

In the end what I said he would command he commanded. Check the tape. While the marketeers speculated I got it right. It's a message board so it doesn't get you a ham sammich. It's still idiotic to continue arguing when there nothing else to discuss on this particular subject.

_________________

So what you're saying is you CAN'T evaluate a player vs another player simply by what they returned because other factors exist that affect the returns those players got? Interesting point, never thought of that.

_________________

I said the only reason the Bulls would have no chance at landing Irving was because the only halfway desirable player on their enitre roster was Butler. I didn't make any kind of claim about Dieng or Gobert at all, never mind being centerpieces of such a trade. But I agree with you now, passing on Gobert to draft Snell or Green to draft Marquis Teague were A-plus rational moves by the perpetual victims in the front office!

Actually, everyone did.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.