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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:06 am 
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IMU wrote:
denisdman wrote:
IMU wrote:
I understand all of this. But having your home flood and not being able to take care of it yourself...you are now a liability to society. Insurance exists to mitigate risk to yourself AND others.


But you can extrapolate that to anything in our society, and that is a big part of the healthcare debate. People are starting to think that way with what people eat and drink. The bigger problem is that we build this vast welfare state where we try to take care of every need, and then you create moral hazard where people don't insure something or take care of themselves and then expect a bailout. Corporate America is VERY guilty of this as well.

We are so far down the nanny state worm hole that people can't see any other way to live.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:08 am 
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I'm asking for people to mitigate their own risk so that others don't have to clean it up.

Most people are shitty, irresponsible people. Someone needs to babysit them to make sure you and I can live comfortably and happily.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:09 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
So correct me if I'm wrong, if the damage had been sustained via the hurricane force winds, their homeowners would have covered it? But because it was the actual flood waters, basic homeowners doesn't cover it?


Correct. It's always an area of contention with hurricanes. Katrina was when it became a huge deal. Basically, companies have to send out engineers to determine what happened first... and technically, if the wind and water happened concurrently, there is no coverage under the homeowner's policy, either. However, in reality, that's rarely enforced and some states don't even allow it to be enforced.


Homeowners insurance is such a fucking ponzi scheme for the insurers....they don't lose that big on hailstorms consider most people have a 1K+ deductible. They only really have to pay on total loss fires, and how often does that happen now? Especially with modern homes and two Taj Mahal-like fire stations in every suburb.


Careful.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:09 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
So correct me if I'm wrong, if the damage had been sustained via the hurricane force winds, their homeowners would have covered it? But because it was the actual flood waters, basic homeowners doesn't cover it?


Correct. It's always an area of contention with hurricanes. Katrina was when it became a huge deal. Basically, companies have to send out engineers to determine what happened first... and technically, if the wind and water happened concurrently, there is no coverage under the homeowner's policy, either. However, in reality, that's rarely enforced and some states don't even allow it to be enforced.


Homeowners insurance is such a fucking ponzi scheme for the insurers....they don't lose that big on hailstorms consider most people have a 1K+ deductible. They only really have to pay on total loss fires, and how often does that happen now? Especially with modern homes and two Taj Mahal-like fire stations in every suburb.


Careful.


My bad, Jake from State Farm.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:11 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
So correct me if I'm wrong, if the damage had been sustained via the hurricane force winds, their homeowners would have covered it? But because it was the actual flood waters, basic homeowners doesn't cover it?


Correct. It's always an area of contention with hurricanes. Katrina was when it became a huge deal. Basically, companies have to send out engineers to determine what happened first... and technically, if the wind and water happened concurrently, there is no coverage under the homeowner's policy, either. However, in reality, that's rarely enforced and some states don't even allow it to be enforced.


Homeowners insurance is such a fucking ponzi scheme for the insurers....they don't lose that big on hailstorms consider most people have a 1K+ deductible. They only really have to pay on total loss fires, and how often does that happen now? Especially with modern homes and two Taj Mahal-like fire stations in every suburb.


Careful.


My bad, Jake from State Farm.


My company does more Commercial insurance, so you're okay for now.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:12 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
So correct me if I'm wrong, if the damage had been sustained via the hurricane force winds, their homeowners would have covered it? But because it was the actual flood waters, basic homeowners doesn't cover it?


Correct. It's always an area of contention with hurricanes. Katrina was when it became a huge deal. Basically, companies have to send out engineers to determine what happened first... and technically, if the wind and water happened concurrently, there is no coverage under the homeowner's policy, either. However, in reality, that's rarely enforced and some states don't even allow it to be enforced.


Homeowners insurance is such a fucking ponzi scheme for the insurers....they don't lose that big on hailstorms consider most people have a 1K+ deductible. They only really have to pay on total loss fires, and how often does that happen now? Especially with modern homes and two Taj Mahal-like fire stations in every suburb.


Careful.


My bad, Jake from State Farm.


My company does more Commercial insurance, so you're okay for now.

I've worked in the Industry, albeit on the tech side for a while now. I know the killer money is made on property insurance. I mean, with all the safety shit, you literally have to be a fucking idiot for your home to burn down(accidentally).


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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:18 am 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
long time guy wrote:
shakes wrote:
Maybe I'm a bit of a cynic, but I just have a hard time calling something a natural disaster if you can still post on this message board while you're in the middle of it.

No one Instagramed themselves jumping out of the WTC back on 9/11, just saying.



Instagram didn't exist in 2001. Neither did Facebook.


Both of these posts are priceless. On one hand shakes seems to think people would have livestreamed themselves taking a swan dive off the WYC on 9/11, on the other we have LTG who seems to think the only reason that didn't happen was due to lack of available technology.



:lol: :lol:

I love it when I win the internet.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:19 am 
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long time guy wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
long time guy wrote:
shakes wrote:
Maybe I'm a bit of a cynic, but I just have a hard time calling something a natural disaster if you can still post on this message board while you're in the middle of it.

No one Instagramed themselves jumping out of the WTC back on 9/11, just saying.



Instagram didn't exist in 2001. Neither did Facebook.


Both of these posts are priceless. On one hand shakes seems to think people would have livestreamed themselves taking a swan dive off the WYC on 9/11, on the other we have LTG who seems to think the only reason that didn't happen was due to lack of available technology.



Just pointing about a factual inaccuracy. It was a stupid statement and not relevant at all to the current conditions on the ground in Houston.


another win for Shakes.


No one is benefiting more from this hurricane than me.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:24 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
I've worked in the Industry, albeit on the tech side for a while now. I know the killer money is made on property insurance. I mean, with all the safety shit, you literally have to be a fucking idiot for your home to burn down(accidentally).


Bob, P&C insurers as an industry typically run a combined ratio above 100. There are very few years where the industry combined ratio produces an underwriting profit. Now, because of investment income, the industry is generally profitable. But it is well known that the industry does not return its cost of capital. In the aggregate, the industry earns a 7% ROE where most boards and shareholders want something in the teens.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:14 am 
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From the "we need to babysit the shitty and irresponsible" department:

Quote:
Houston is built on what amounts to a massive flood plain, pitted against the tempestuous Gulf of Mexico and routinely hammered by the biggest rainstorms in the nation.

It is a combination of malicious climate and unforgiving geology, along with a deficit of zoning and land-use controls, that scientists and engineers say leaves the nation’s fourth most populous city vulnerable to devastating floods like the one caused this week by Hurricane Harvey.

“Houston is very flat,” said Robert Gilbert, a University of Texas at Austin civil engineer who helped investigate the flooding of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. “There is no way for the water to drain out.”

Indeed, the city has less slope than a shower floor.

Harvey poured as much as 374 billion gallons of water within the city limits, exceeding the capacity of rivers, bayous, lakes and reservoirs. Experts said the result was predictable.

The storm was unprecedented, but the city has been deceiving itself for decades about its vulnerability to flooding, said Robert Bea, a member of the National Academy of Engineering and UC Berkeley emeritus civil engineering professor who has studied hurricane risks along the Gulf Coast.

The city’s flood system is supposed to protect the public from a 100-year storm, but Bea calls that “a 100-year lie” because it is based on a rainfall total of 13 inches in 24 hours.

“That has happened more than eight times in the last 27 years,” Bea said. “It is wrong on two counts. It isn’t accurate about the past risk and it doesn’t reflect what will happen in the next 100 years.”


Quote:
Another long-term problem is the city’s rampant growth and urbanization. The city has 2.2 million residents and the metropolitan area has 6.5 million, all living in a state that eschews much of the zoning and land-use controls that help keep construction away from flood zones in states with more regulations.

“It is naturally prone to flooding,” said Don Riley, the former chief of the Army Corps of Engineers civil works division. “People have built in this massive flood plain. They have to understand that.”

The Corps and local officials have discussed ways to avert even greater risks by improving zoning, reducing the amount pavement to allow better drainage into the soil, building retention ponds in new housing developments and constructing new storm barriers. But when the Corps has tried to encourage land-use controls, the local reaction by politicians and developers has often been swift and furious, Riley said.

“The problem is not decreasing, whatever the future of the weather is,” he said. “It will worsen in the sense that there will be more population. You have to be smart about where you put development.”


Quote:
Exactly what Houston could do is far from certain. Gilbert, the University of Texas expert, said any big measures would take a lot of study. Chicago, for example, has massive tunnels hundreds of feet underground that can store 21 billions of gallons storm water and prevent sewage contamination of Lake Michigan, he noted. [Ed. note: 8)]

“Houston is excessively developed,” he said. “It has 6 million people with lots of concrete and lots of people in harm’s way.”


Gotta feel terrible for the people who had no say in the way this place turned out.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:33 am 
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Several trillion gallons of water expected in total, already a couple trillion fell.. The gator farm in Beaumont will lose all the gators by this time tomorrow. There's nowhere for the water to go, somebody told me you can dig a hole in many parts of Texas and hit bedrock at 5 feet.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:34 am 
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312player wrote:
somebody told me you can dig a hole in many parts of Texas and hit bedrock at 5 feet.
That is why the Alamo doesn't have a basement.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:29 am 
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/classic-apps/how-wild-west-growth-may-have-contributed-to-devastating-flood-in-houston/2017/08/29/290e4e56-8c13-11e7-91d5-ab4e4bb76a3a_story.html

Quote:
Houston calls itself “the city with no limits” to convey the promise of boundless opportunity. But it also is the largest U.S. city to have no zoning laws, part of a hands-off approach to urban planning that may have contributed to catastrophic flooding from Hurricane Harvey and left thousands of residents in harm’s way.

Growth that is virtually unchecked, including in flood-prone areas, has diminished the land’s already-limited natural ability to absorb water, according to environmentalists and experts in land use and natural disasters. And the city’s drainage system — a network of reservoirs, bayous and, as a last resort, roads that hold and drain water — was not designed to handle the massive storms that are increasingly common.

Certainly, the record-shattering rainfall on Houston and its surrounding area this week would have wreaked havoc even if stricter building limits and better runoff systems were in place. And local officials have defended the city’s approach to development.

But the unfolding disaster — at least 22 people are dead and upward of 30 percent of Harris County, which includes Houston, is underwater — is drawing renewed scrutiny to Houston’s approach to city planning and its unique system for managing floodwater.

“You would have seen widespread damage with Harvey no matter what, but I have no doubt it could have been substantially reduced,” said Jim Blackburn, co-director of Rice University’s research center on severe storm prediction and disaster evacuation.

Over many years, officials in Houston and Harris County have resisted calls for more stringent building codes. Proposals for large-scale flood-control projects envisioned in the wake of Hurricane Ike in 2008 stalled. City residents have voted three times not to enact a zoning code, most recently in 1993.

Rather than impose restrictions on what property owners can do with their land, Houston has attempted to engineer a solution to drainage. The region depends on a network of bayous — slow-moving streams that run east into Galveston Bay — and concrete channels as the main drainage system. Streets and detention ponds are designed to carry and hold the overflow.

In previous public comments, the leaders of the Harris County Flood Control District have rejected the idea that the city’s growth is responsible for massive flooding. They also have disputed the scientific assessments. Those officials were not available this week.

Bill St. John, a retired civil engineer and former project manager for the district, said in an interview: “There are people who would turn around and say there needed to be stronger rules and regulations. And in hindsight, it’s real easy to say that. But the rules and regulations were what they needed to be at the time. There was no scientific proof it needed to be stronger at the time, so it wasn’t.”

But in a city built on a low-lying coastal plain, on “black gumbo,” clay-based soil that is among the least absorbent in the nation, many experts say those approaches no longer suffice. They say that new homes should be elevated and that construction should be prohibited in some flood-prone areas.

Since 2010, at least 7,000 residential buildings have been constructed in Harris County on properties that sit mostly on land the federal government has designated as a 100-year flood plain, according to a Washington Post review of areas at the greatest risk of flooding. Some other cities also allow building in flood plains, with varying degrees of regulation.

“Houston is the Wild West of development, so any mention of regulation creates a hostile reaction from people who see that as an infringement on property rights and a deterrent to economic growth,” said Sam Brody, director of the Center for Texas Beaches and Shores at Texas A&M University. “The stormwater system has never been designed for anything much stronger than a heavy afternoon thunderstorm.”

At the same time, severe storms are becoming more frequent, experts said. The city’s building laws are designed to guard against what was once considered a worst-case scenario — a 100-year storm, or one that planners projected would have only a 1 percent chance of happening in any given year. Those storms have become quite common, however. Harvey, which dumped up to 50 inches of rain in some places as of Tuesday afternoon, is the third such storm to hit Houston in the past three years.

In May 2015, seven people died after 12 inches of rain fell in 10 hours during what is known as the Memorial Day Flood. Eight people died in April 2016 during a storm that dropped 17 inches of rain.

Like other coastal areas, Houston and its surrounding areas have repeatedly turned to federal taxpayers for help rebuilding.

Harris County has received about $3 billion from the Federal Emergency Management Agency for losses in the past four decades, federal data show. It ranks third in the amount paid by the National Flood Insurance Program, behind Orleans and Jefferson parishes in Louisiana, which sustained significant damage during Hurricane Katrina in 2005.

In the 1940s, the Army Corps of Engineers built two massive reservoirs that serve as holding areas during big downpours. In the following decades, the city carved out additional concrete channels and lined bayous with pavement to shunt water away.

“The system is dependent on bayous that have been there forever and had a certain capacity,” said Gerry Galloway, a professor of civil engineering at the University of Maryland and a visiting professor at Texas A&M. “Over the years, that was probably a reasonable way to deal with this. As the city grew, and there was more development, there was less and less capacity to carry the runoff.”

Houston’s population climbed to 2.2 million in 2015, a 25 percent increase from 1995. Harris County had an even bigger bump over that time, 42 percent, and now has 4.5 million residents. As the population grew, the city expanded, covering fallow land that had served as a natural sponge.

Between 1992 and 2010, 30 percent of the surrounding county’s coastal prairie wetlands were paved over, according to a 2010 report from Texas A&M.

Projects to widen the bayous and build thousands of retention ponds for excess water have not kept pace with the new rooftops, roadways and parking lots needed to accommodate about 150,000 new residents a year, experts say. As a backup, roads were built below grade and designed to take on excess water when storm drains overflow.

“The philosophy was: Wouldn’t you rather have water in the street than in your house?” said D. Wayne Klotz, a water resources engineer and senior principal at RPS Klotz Associates and a former national president of the American Society of Civil Engineers.

When the streets fill up, though, evacuation becomes more difficult.

In the days before Harvey struck, city officials urged residents to stay put. On social media, local officials knocked down predictions that as many as 50 inches of rain were expected — reports that overstated the forecast at the time but turned out to align more closely with the eventual rainfall.

When the rain came, roads turned into waterways, requiring door-to-door boat rescues.

In many areas of the city, especially the older parts, water that breaches the roadways flows into homes that sit on ground-level slabs. Blackburn said that requiring higher elevations of homes in flood-prone areas — the current requirement is one foot above the level of a “100-year storm” — would have stemmed the losses from Harvey and past storms.

John Jacob, director of the Texas Coastal Watershed Program and a professor at Texas A&M, said he was particularly incensed to hear about a nursing home in Dickinson, southeast of Houston, where residents in wheelchairs were sitting in waist-deep water. They were rescued after photos of them went viral on social media.

“That should never have been built,” Jacob said of the nursing home that sits across the street from the floodplain boundary. “We’re putting people in harm’s way.”

Jacob lives in a neighborhood east of downtown called Eastwood that he said was spared from flooding damage because many lots are above street level, and homes have been built on “pier and beam” foundations that include a crawl space of a few feet. That adds thousands of dollars to the cost and isn’t required by city or county building codes.

All of Harris County’s 34 municipalities have their own plans for addressing flooding issues whose causes and solutions extend beyond borders.

“There never has been a comprehensive plan that considered all the area that would affect Houston,” Galloway said.

Last year, the state’s high court dismissed a class-action lawsuit brought by 400 Harris County homeowners who suffered flood damage three times in five years — during Tropical Storm Frances in 1998, Tropical Storm Allison in 2001, and an unnamed storm in 2002.

The county argued in court that it had spent tens of millions of dollars on flood control and disputed the homeowners’ claim that developers had free rein. A majority of the court agreed, saying residents failed to directly link development in one part of the watershed with flooding in their particular homes.

“Even by the homeowners’ reckoning the flooding resulted from multiple causes,” the court found, including “acts of God.”


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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:04 am 
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To be fair, I think any city that received 50 inches of rain in such a short period of time would flood.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:07 am 
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The article was clear that flooding would occur. Houston's "da gerbament git off my proper-tay" mentality made it FAR worse for MANY.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:15 am 
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denisdman wrote:
To be fair, I think any city that received 50 inches of rain in such a short period of time would flood.
Maybe not expand in such a massive way if you have a good possibility of this type of storm every so often?

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:23 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
The article was clear that flooding would occur. Houston's "da gerbament git off my proper-tay" mentality made it FAR worse for MANY.


How many will now be making those same complaints while living in a FEMA trailer.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:00 am 
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denisdman wrote:
To be fair, I think any city that received 50 inches of rain in such a short period of time would flood.



Yes, but it's insane to build on flood plane and I thought it was illegal to build on wetlands or destroy natural wetlands.. The army Corp of engineers controls that I thought.


And those shit kickers can deny global warming all they want, the fact is the earth is warming and storms are more severe and frequent. Three straight years the city has flooded badly.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:09 am 
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312player wrote:
Yes, but it's insane to build on flood plane

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:17 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
312player wrote:
Yes, but it's insane to build on flood plane

Image


That picture is a fake.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:52 am 
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Perhaps our subsidized flood insurance program is a problem.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... ton-215549

Europe is a continent littered with ruins. Why is that you ask? Because natural disasters struck and lessons were learned leading to the rebuilding of cities on different, more suitable locations.

I mean we idiotically rebuilt New Orleans. You can bet that place will flood again. It's a question of when, not if.

It's possible for people to move to the south yet not live on a flood plain. I suggest the Mid-South to most hoping to escape extreme winters. I may be moving to the mid-south as well next year (family reasons for that though, not weather)

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:22 am 
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Mexico has offered Texas a helping hand “as good neighbors should always do in trying times” as Tropical Storm Harvey continues to ravage the Lone Star State.

Mexican Foreign Minister Luis Videgaray expressed his support for Texas during a phone call Sunday night with Gov. Greg Abbott, the Dallas Morning News reported.

“The Mexican government takes this opportunity to express its full solidarity with the people and government of the United States as a result of the damages caused by Hurricane Harvey in Texas, and expresses that it has offered to provide help and cooperation to the US government in order to deal with the impact of this natural disaster — as good neighbors should always do in trying times,” Mexico’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs said in a statement.

Carlos Gonzalez Gutierrez, the Mexican consul general in Austin, also said he’s been in constant touch with Abbott’s office about how he can help.

“As we have done in the past, Mexico stands with Texas in this difficult moment,” Gonzalez said.

Following Hurricane Katrina in 2005, Mexico sent troops across the border to distribute hot meals and water at a former Air Force base outside San Antonio.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:56 am 
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They can help by paying for our wall, dammit!

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
312player wrote:
somebody told me you can dig a hole in many parts of Texas and hit bedrock at 5 feet.
That is why the Alamo doesn't have a basement.


Was Plute in business back then?


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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:51 pm 
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I knew they were coming but man theres some sad stories coming out now . Family of 6 drowned in a van , little girl clinging to her dead mom before being rescued . Awful.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:55 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
I knew they were coming but man theres some sad stories coming out now . Family of 6 drowned in a van , little girl clinging to her dead mom before being rescued . Awful.

I know something like that is tragic, but how the fuck does that even happen? Get out of the damn van and get on the roof of the car or something...

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Last edited by Douchebag on Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
So correct me if I'm wrong, if the damage had been sustained via the hurricane force winds, their homeowners would have covered it? But because it was the actual flood waters, basic homeowners doesn't cover it?


Correct. It's always an area of contention with hurricanes. Katrina was when it became a huge deal. Basically, companies have to send out engineers to determine what happened first... and technically, if the wind and water happened concurrently, there is no coverage under the homeowner's policy, either. However, in reality, that's rarely enforced and some states don't even allow it to be enforced.


Homeowners insurance is such a fucking ponzi scheme for the insurers....they don't lose that big on hailstorms consider most people have a 1K+ deductible. They only really have to pay on total loss fires, and how often does that happen now? Especially with modern homes and two Taj Mahal-like fire stations in every suburb.

Just for a laugh ... do you have any actual data to back that up or is this just pulled-out-of-your-ass supposition and bluster?

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Swept off a bridge into the bayou apparently .

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:00 pm 
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Peoria Matt wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
312player wrote:
somebody told me you can dig a hole in many parts of Texas and hit bedrock at 5 feet.
That is why the Alamo doesn't have a basement.


Was Plute in business back then?


"PulteGroup, Inc. is a Michigan corporation organized in 1956. We are one of the largest homebuilders in the United States ("U.S."), and our common shares trade on the New York Stock Exchange under the ticker symbol “PHM”. "

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 Post subject: Re: Hurricane Harvey
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:04 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
I knew they were coming but man theres some sad stories coming out now . Family of 6 drowned in a van , little girl clinging to her dead mom before being rescued . Awful.


works better than a seat cushion evidently.

Read the story about the family of 6, sounds like they drove down the wrong river.

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