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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:18 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
So she was more "an accessory to" than an actual cop killer.

I read about how they convicted her based on that law you cited, but they still convicted her of murder? So they dont differentiate at all between accessory and the one who pulled the trigger?
Well, she is suspected as involved in much more than that, but legally in that case they got her as a cop killer too as JLN explained.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:22 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
So they dont differentiate at all between accessory and the one who pulled the trigger?


Free Manson!

Dave Manson? He spent WAY too much time in the penalty box.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:24 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
So she was more "an accessory to" than an actual cop killer.

I read about how they convicted her based on that law you cited, but they still convicted her of murder? So they dont differentiate at all between accessory and the one who pulled the trigger?
Well, she is suspected as involved in much more than that, but legally in that case they got her as a cop killer too as JLN explained.

Cops have also stated her involvement was exaggerated because she was educated and attractive.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:26 am 
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Jbi11s wrote:
Cops have also stated her involvement was exaggerated because she was educated and attractive.
What exactly is the argument here? The law is clear. Now, maybe it's a bad law but I'd like to see the argument as to why it is as I think it makes sense.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:35 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
Cops have also stated her involvement was exaggerated because she was educated and attractive.
What exactly is the argument here? The law is clear. Now, maybe it's a bad law but I'd like to see the argument as to why it is as I think it makes sense.

I was responding to the first part of your statement. Didn't read the second part.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:36 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
So does the donation to a charity in the name of a woman who killed a cop change anything about this?

To this day she denies it and I believe her account is supported by medical evidence?


Ill admit to just doing a little research on this, so maybe someone who is more familiar with the details can explain it.


Her account that she didn't pull a trigger during the event is backed up by physical evidence, and her gunshot wounds from the trooper's pistol don't support the narrative that she was crouched by the vehicle facing the officer, per the surviving officer's testimony.

However, she wasn't convicted as the trigger-man, anyway, she was convicted under New Jersey's felony murder rule, wherein any party to an ongoing felony is convicted of the deaths that result from the felony (she was holding ammunition for the two armed individuals that did the shooting, and had been evading authorities after skipping bail for an armed robbery arrest in 1971, while also being named a suspect in the attempted murder of two cops in New York).

The jury instructions reflected this fact, as did the fact that the jury (who deliberated for three days, which should cool accusations that it was a blue ribbon panel of whites set to convict her of anything) asked the instructions be given to them again midway through their deliberations. In New Jersey, when you are convicted of murdering a law enforcement officer while performing his or her duties, you are immediately sentenced to life without parole.

Absent a smoking gun other than the subtle implication that white people cannot rightly convict a black person accused of a crime, she was rightly convicted.

So she was more "an accessory to" than an actual cop killer.

I read about how they convicted her based on that law you cited, but they still convicted her of murder? So they dont differentiate at all between accessory and the one who pulled the trigger?


No, no differentiation, and that is good law. The example I always heard was set in the 50's in the rural south concerning lynch mobs: Imagine a group of white guys congregating at a bar, and they up and decide they're gonna go out and find themselves a black guy to kill. So they split up into two groups and take two cars. Car A heads out and doesn't find a black guy, so they drive home, disperse, and go to sleep. Car B, though, finds an unfortunate soul, and the inhabitants of Car B commit murder. Every single passenger of Car A is also guilty of murder, the same murder as the passengers of Car B, as they should be. You don't get to be part of a roving band of people with felonious intent, and then just happen to luck into not consummating a criminal act because your group couldn't find a target. You were in for a penny at the bar when you decided to go out to kill someone, you're in for the pound when the act is performed, regardless of whether you were there.

Imagine it like a strict liability of criminal intent: If you intend to commit (or attempt to commit) certain dangerous, violent acts, or be part of a group that will commit or is likely to commit (or attempt to commit) same, you are on the hook for the downstream consequences, however unforeseen.

Applied to Shakur's case, she was holding the ammunition for people who fired upon an officer in the discharge of his duties for the purpose of escaping his lawful detention (Criminal Escape Count 1), and was at the time seeking to evade authorities after being arrested and charged with a different violent crime, and named as a suspect in two others (Criminal Escape Count 2). She's just as guilty of the death of that police officer as the guy who pulled the trigger, and the law treats killings committed while in the commission (or attempted commission), or fleeing of, certain felonies (like criminal escape in New Jersey) as first degree murder. Ergo, she is a convicted murderer.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:45 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
So she was more "an accessory to" than an actual cop killer.

I read about how they convicted her based on that law you cited, but they still convicted her of murder? So they dont differentiate at all between accessory and the one who pulled the trigger?
Well, she is suspected as involved in much more than that, but legally in that case they got her as a cop killer too as JLN explained.

But she may have never killed a cop.

I like my cop killers to actually have killed cop, maybe I'm old fashioned.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:46 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
So does the donation to a charity in the name of a woman who killed a cop change anything about this?

To this day she denies it and I believe her account is supported by medical evidence?


Ill admit to just doing a little research on this, so maybe someone who is more familiar with the details can explain it.


Her account that she didn't pull a trigger during the event is backed up by physical evidence, and her gunshot wounds from the trooper's pistol don't support the narrative that she was crouched by the vehicle facing the officer, per the surviving officer's testimony.

However, she wasn't convicted as the trigger-man, anyway, she was convicted under New Jersey's felony murder rule, wherein any party to an ongoing felony is convicted of the deaths that result from the felony (she was holding ammunition for the two armed individuals that did the shooting, and had been evading authorities after skipping bail for an armed robbery arrest in 1971, while also being named a suspect in the attempted murder of two cops in New York).

The jury instructions reflected this fact, as did the fact that the jury (who deliberated for three days, which should cool accusations that it was a blue ribbon panel of whites set to convict her of anything) asked the instructions be given to them again midway through their deliberations. In New Jersey, when you are convicted of murdering a law enforcement officer while performing his or her duties, you are immediately sentenced to life without parole.

Absent a smoking gun other than the subtle implication that white people cannot rightly convict a black person accused of a crime, she was rightly convicted.

So she was more "an accessory to" than an actual cop killer.

I read about how they convicted her based on that law you cited, but they still convicted her of murder? So they dont differentiate at all between accessory and the one who pulled the trigger?


No, no differentiation, and that is good law. The example I always heard was set in the 50's in the rural south concerning lynch mobs: Imagine a group of white guys congregating at a bar, and they up and decide they're gonna go out and find themselves a black guy to kill. So they split up into two groups and take two cars. Car A heads out and doesn't find a black guy, so they drive home, disperse, and go to sleep. Car B, though, finds an unfortunate soul, and the inhabitants of Car B commit murder. Every single passenger of Car A is also guilty of murder, the same murder as the passengers of Car B, as they should be. You don't get to be part of a roving band of people with felonious intent, and then just happen to luck into not consummating a criminal act because your group couldn't find a target. You were in for a penny at the bar when you decided to go out to kill someone, you're in for the pound when the act is performed, regardless of whether you were there.

Imagine it like a strict liability of criminal intent: If you intend to commit (or attempt to commit) certain dangerous, violent acts, or be part of a group that will commit or is likely to commit (or attempt to commit) same, you are on the hook for the downstream consequences, however unforeseen.

Applied to Shakur's case, she was holding the ammunition for people who fired upon an officer in the discharge of his duties for the purpose of escaping his lawful detention (Criminal Escape Count 1), and was at the time seeking to evade authorities after being arrested and charged with a different violent crime, and named as a suspect in two others (Criminal Escape Count 2). She's just as guilty of the death of that police officer as the guy who pulled the trigger, and the law treats killings committed while in the commission (or attempted commission), or fleeing of, certain felonies (like criminal escape in New Jersey) as first degree murder. Ergo, she is a convicted murderer.

I think it's a good law.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:47 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
But she may have never killed a cop.
Legally, and logically she did.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:47 am 
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Is a cop killer supposed to be thought of as worse than a regular killer? Seems like an unnecessary qualifier

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:50 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Is a cop killer supposed to be thought of as worse than a regular killer? Seems like an unnecessary qualifier
How we look at a kililng is dependent on the circumstances so it is useful information to know. Some may think it is worse than a normal killing and that would be a valid way to look at it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:51 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
But she may have never killed a cop.
Legally, and logically she did.

Legally, O.J. Simpson didnt kill anyone.

The pig socks are worse,imo


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:52 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
But she may have never killed a cop.
Legally, and logically she did.

Legally, O.J. Simpson didnt kill anyone.

The pig socks are worse,imo
What exactly are you arguing here? Are you defending her? Are you just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:56 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Is a cop killer supposed to be thought of as worse than a regular killer? Seems like an unnecessary qualifier
How we look at a kililng is dependent on the circumstances so it is useful information to know.

That doesn't make sense though. It tells you nothing about the circumstances. It just tells you what the victim did for a living.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:56 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
But she may have never killed a cop.
Legally, and logically she did.

Legally, O.J. Simpson didnt kill anyone.

The pig socks are worse,imo
What exactly are you arguing here? Are you defending her? Are you just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian?

I'm not arguing. I'm just trying to discuss Assata Shakur and exactly what she did since some people have painted her as a victim.

Of course I dont defend helping someone kill a cop.


The pig socks are worse.


Why do you seek to discredit Kaepernick? I mean, he doesnt need your help. He's full of shit to a degree. I dont think anyone here even disagrees with that. But he's the face of a cause you seem to support.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:58 am 
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I don't think Kaep is full of shit. I think he's wrong on some stuff but I'm pretty sure he genuinely cares a lot about his causes. If not, that's an expensive act.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:59 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Is a cop killer supposed to be thought of as worse than a regular killer? Seems like an unnecessary qualifier
How we look at a kililng is dependent on the circumstances so it is useful information to know.

That doesn't make sense though. It tells you nothing about the circumstances. It just tells you what the victim did for a living.
I think it's assumed it was an on-duty officer killed.

When an on-duty cop kills someone that is important to the story and it is also important when a person kills an on-duty cop.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:04 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Is a cop killer supposed to be thought of as worse than a regular killer? Seems like an unnecessary qualifier
How we look at a kililng is dependent on the circumstances so it is useful information to know.

That doesn't make sense though. It tells you nothing about the circumstances. It just tells you what the victim did for a living.
I think it's assumed it was an on-duty officer killed.

When an on-duty cop kills someone that is important to the story and it is also important when a person kills an on-duty cop.

I dunno. I think it's pretty wrong to imply that a murder is worse solely because of what the victim did for a living.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:07 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
I dunno. I think it's pretty wrong to imply that a murder is worse solely because of what the victim did for a living.
It's not what he did for a living. It's that he was performing the action of enforcing the law. It's like if a judge was killed because of a ruling they made. It's an important distinction.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:09 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
I don't think Kaep is full of shit. I think he's wrong on some stuff but I'm pretty sure he genuinely cares a lot about his causes. If not, that's an expensive act.

I think he probably cares about it now but was led there by the woman. He was such a douchebag when he was good. Didnt seem to care about much beyond himself.


Which is fine. He evolved.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:14 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I dunno. I think it's pretty wrong to imply that a murder is worse solely because of what the victim did for a living.
It's not what he did for a living. It's that he was performing the action of enforcing the law. It's like if a judge was killed because of a ruling they made. It's an important distinction.

I agree it's important to the story. My post wasn't about the overall story. The label cop killer is pretty much only used to imply that cops are heroes and anyone who kills one is more evil than an ordinary killer.

There's a reason you've heard the term cop killer countless times but nobody ever says judge killer, lawyer killer, councilman killer, etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:15 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I dunno. I think it's pretty wrong to imply that a murder is worse solely because of what the victim did for a living.
It's not what he did for a living. It's that he was performing the action of enforcing the law. It's like if a judge was killed because of a ruling they made. It's an important distinction.

I agree it's important to the story. My post wasn't about the overall story. The label cop killer is pretty much only used to imply that cops are heroes and anyone who kills one is more evil than an ordinary killer.

There's a reason you've heard the term cop killer countless times but nobody ever says judge killer, lawyer killer, councilman killer, etc.

Ice-T never made a song about them, either.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:15 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I don't think Kaep is full of shit. I think he's wrong on some stuff but I'm pretty sure he genuinely cares a lot about his causes. If not, that's an expensive act.

I think he probably cares about it now but was led there by the woman. He was such a douchebag when he was good. Didnt seem to care about much beyond himself.


Which is fine. He evolved.

:lol:

Of course it's fine. Non sociopaths tend to evolve in their 20's.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:18 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I don't think Kaep is full of shit. I think he's wrong on some stuff but I'm pretty sure he genuinely cares a lot about his causes. If not, that's an expensive act.

I think he probably cares about it now but was led there by the woman. He was such a douchebag when he was good. Didnt seem to care about much beyond himself.


Which is fine. He evolved.

:lol:

Of course it's fine. Non sociopaths tend to evolve in their 20's.

There are MANY here who have an issue with evolution on things like that.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:19 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I dunno. I think it's pretty wrong to imply that a murder is worse solely because of what the victim did for a living.
It's not what he did for a living. It's that he was performing the action of enforcing the law. It's like if a judge was killed because of a ruling they made. It's an important distinction.

I agree it's important to the story. My post wasn't about the overall story. The label cop killer is pretty much only used to imply that cops are heroes and anyone who kills one is more evil than an ordinary killer.

There's a reason you've heard the term cop killer countless times but nobody ever says judge killer, lawyer killer, councilman killer, etc.
Well, there are levels of killing. Just one example, but two guys who get into a bar fight and one guy kills the other is not as bad as a person who shoots a cop because they pulled them over and tried to enforce the law.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:21 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I dunno. I think it's pretty wrong to imply that a murder is worse solely because of what the victim did for a living.
It's not what he did for a living. It's that he was performing the action of enforcing the law. It's like if a judge was killed because of a ruling they made. It's an important distinction.

I agree it's important to the story. My post wasn't about the overall story. The label cop killer is pretty much only used to imply that cops are heroes and anyone who kills one is more evil than an ordinary killer.

There's a reason you've heard the term cop killer countless times but nobody ever says judge killer, lawyer killer, councilman killer, etc.
Well, there are levels of killing. Just one example, but two guys who get into a bar fight and one guy kills the other is not as bad as a person who shoots a cop because they pulled them over and tried to enforce the law.

If getting the story right is important, probably best not to assume motivations.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:24 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
If getting the story right is important, probably best not to assume motivations.
Motivation in a cop killing is normally pretty clear.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:26 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
If getting the story right is important, probably best not to assume motivations.
Motivation in a cop killing is normally pretty clear.

But it's not. You just implied that they all were because the killers didn't want the cops enforcing the law. That's not true.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:27 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
If getting the story right is important, probably best not to assume motivations.
Motivation in a cop killing is normally pretty clear.

But it's not. You just implied that they all were because the killers didn't want the cops enforcing the law. That's not true.
Well, it could be worse than that, but I was being kind.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:30 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
If getting the story right is important, probably best not to assume motivations.
Motivation in a cop killing is normally pretty clear.

But it's not. You just implied that they all were because the killers didn't want the cops enforcing the law. That's not true.
Well, it could be worse than that, but I was being kind.

I'm pretty sure it's usually worse than that. But that goes back to my original point. "Cop killer" isn't meant to be informative, it's meant to imply killing cops is worse than killing non cops.

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