It's not a matter of need but can. I think the idea that the armed citizenry is currently somehow protecting against government tyranny is delusional and is not the least bit compelling as a justification for our current gun laws. I have more respect for people who say nothing should change because they simply like their guns than this self-righteous fantasy.

Glad you're willing to not rule out rocket launchers for all tout court though!

I'm just going to leave this old copypasta that has circled certain gun forums for years.


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Seventy-two killed resisting gun confiscation in Boston!

(AP) Boston – National Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed by elements of a Para-military extremist faction. Military and law enforcement sources estimate that 72 were killed and more than 200 injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement.

Gage blamed the extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against internal revenue offices. The governor, who described the group’s organizers as “criminals,” issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any individual who has interfered with the government’s efforts to secure law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault weapons.

Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in early this month between government and military leaders at which the governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms.

One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out that “none of these people would have been killed had the extremists obeyed the law and turned over their weapons voluntarily.”

Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the government’s plans.

During a tense standoff in the Lexington town park, National Guard Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the right-wing extremists.

Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces over matched by the armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified as “ringleaders” of the extremist faction, remain at large.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

There are plenty of examples that illustrate exactly how wrong you are about an armed citizenry protecting against government tyranny, including the very fact that the United States of America exists.

Regardless, when the Bill of Rights was written it didn't explicitly except the most powerful weapons of the day. Doing so would have pretty much rendered the Amendment pointless, no?

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Freedom is our Strength.

On that note, we must curtail the 1st Amendment to not include broadast media and the Internet. Only hand operated printing presses are protected now!

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

Every post is dumber than the one previous. I'm glad we live in a country with so many brave patriots like yourself. You'd shit yourself if the black helicopters ever showed up.

Gotta agree with JBO on this one. I mean I get/respect self-defense, of course, but Ogie has got to stop referring to things that happened in the 18th century or in Afghanistan for inspiration. No matter how well covered you think you are on top of the roof of the local Krispy Kreme, you're going down if shit gets real. I'll admit though that if I'm going to go out, I'd much rather go out that way than if I were powerless. I'd just stop pretending there's a chance though.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I think pretending the technological gap between state and subject in the 18th century is the least bit comparable or relevant to that difference today requires an extreme amount of naivete or bad faith. But again, perhaps that just means private citizens should be able to obtain nukes since those are the most powerful weapons of the day in order to truly protect against tyranny and level the playing field. The problem is actually that our weapons are too weak and there's not enough of them.

If we are talking about a true worst case scenario I don't think that is true. I mean, of course the government could march tanks and fighter jets coast to coast but we can't even do that in foreign countries we are at war with.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Are you suggesting the government might nuke it's own people? That really seems untenable. I think it makes more sense to talk about why superior American weaponry can't simply steamroll the armed citizens of third world countries.

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Freedom is our Strength.

It's just a silly thing to even bring up. I know governments across the world in the modern age subject their citizens to horrible treatment from time to time, so it's not entirely implausible, but I don't see it as feasible here. National identity here is strong and the majority of people who the "government" will ask to wage war against their own people will become conscientious objectors. Tyranny is being brought up here within an outdated paradigm.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

JORR, do you believe the U.S. is using max resources and putting forth max effort in any of the recent Middle East conflicts?

Also, the guys talking about the possibility of a government coming after them just elected the guy who would be most likely to do it. I find that sort of funny.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

In the near term of course but we are fortunate enough that we live in a time when it seems like it will last forever. Go look at what the worst case scenario in Spain is right now. It's unlikely but not implausible that a civil war will break out there.

Who knows what the next 200 years look like?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

That's disanlogous as well because it neglects the home field and surveillance advantages a state has over its own area, because it neglects the amount of resources expended for foreign wars compared to the amount that would be used to maintain control here, and because many of the weapons used to resist US efforts abroad would be illegal for a private citizen to obtain in the US anyway. So that means they're either irrelevant as counterpoints to gun control today or they in fact indicate we should have less restrictive gun control, not more. Rocket launchers and automatic weapons for all!

Doesn't the military already have a drafted plan to suppress any sort of uprising in the states? There's no comparison to Afghanistan.

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Or what if other states demand to take "our" fresh water from Lake Michigan?

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The Constitution, Outdated Paradigm

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Of course we don't know the future but Spain is not a good analogy because the country is not unified - Catalonia is an autonomous region in Spain that is trying to succeed from the country. That obviously increases tensions. If California or something were trying to do the same over here then yeah I'd say the likelihood of civil violence is high.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Sure, we could drop a nuke, the U.S. obviously has superior firepower and can't really overcome these ragtag jihadis. It was the same in Vietnam. It's hard to defeat people who really believe in a cause. And eventually, rebels get help from other powers as a strategic measure.

I'm not sure what you're talking about in your second sentence. I didn't vote for Trump and I'm pretty sure Ogie and BRick didn't either.

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Freedom is our Strength.

This from a guy that won't even post his response under his regular screen name....

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Two birds with two stones in one thread. I didn't intend the second sentence for you. It was generally speaking toward the #2a #Trump crowd.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Are you suggesting history stopped once the constitution was drafted?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Nope. Hence why we have amendments. But the broad strokes in the Bill of Rights are applicable throughout the ages. That's why they didn't get specific with the technologies of the times. The Bill of Rights are protections and freedoms from your government. Don't see why anyone would want those taken away. The government is overreaching and intrusive enough in our lives as it is.

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You realize some of the loudest voices for the 2A on this thread are not pro-Trump. We are pro-Liberty and there is no liberty in Trumpism.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

I think most of the Ogie types in the US would not be willing to die for the cause therefore making it all just tough internet talk. If you are not willing to die for the cause, you are not gonna put a real fight against the government.

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You're pro-something, alright. I don't think having restrictions on certain types of guns would be jeopardizing your 'state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.'

If the government's actions in trying to reduce mass shootings and violent crimes are considered oppressive, then I should hope to god that you drive 100 mph on the expressways and ignore prescriptions when it comes time to medicate. Also, who are they to tell you what animals you can kill and when? You know what? Who are they to tell you what property is yours and what property is someone else's?

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Things have to get bad enough for people to be willing to die. As BRick pointed out, we're not nearly there in the U.S. But I would say that if BRick can actually envision society breaking down in such a way, the possibility is very real.

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Freedom is our Strength.

If the government was openly warring with citizens I think they would. Do you think we would just sit by and become North Korea?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Bad analogy. You're making it seem like there are no laws on the books regarding guns when in fact there are hundreds of federal, state and local laws already enacted. And there already are restrictions on certain types of guns. Guns aren't like drones or bitcoins where the government is trying to catch up with the technology regarding applicable laws.

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Exactly. Conns is making a big leap there. Obviously there are a few nuts out there just itching for a war with the government. But most gun-owning, freedom-loving people are not going to publicly embrace a battle. However, if it comes to being rolled over or fighting, I, like many others in this country, would choose to fight; however, futile it might be.

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Many people forget this. They cannot grasp that laws in this case have failed them and they must pass more laws to fail them the next time.

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Elections have consequences.