All the love being shown to this man is mind boggling. There is nothing honorable about a man who committed treason and killed more Americans than all other wars combined. Slavery doesn't even need to be mentioned. This attempt to white wash history makes me ill.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I don't think this would apply to you, Nas, but a perfect "gotcha" for MANY shouting this from the rooftops would be as simple as "Is Chelsea Manning a patriot?".

In no way am I defending anything about him, but a lot of the views of him are through 21st century glasses. Which is the problem with most complaints about US in history. Obviously, looking back now and applying today's moral compass (which in itself is hilarious), most of US history looks brutal and awful.

You don't need 21st century glasses to see that Robert E. Lee took up arms against his own country.

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There is no doubt historians and the media has treated him well pre 2017. There's even a romanticism with him.

HIstorians and the media rarely love a enemy of the US, but he gets a pass. Maybe the battle plan he 'dropped' from his horse before Gettysberg was intentional. So that's why they gave him some good publicity for 150 years?

btw....you ever see Lee before the Civil war? He looks like a young man. After he looks like a grandpa.

And I'm sure you know that President LIncoln was so pissed about Lee after the war he commissioned his home and land to be a cemetary for union soliders which you know now as Arlington National Cemetery.

I don’t mean to apologize for his downfalls or make excuses for him, but I agree with every single, solitary view he ever held. Great man.

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Fuck General Lee and any of his supporters, but this is a god awful reason to dislike the man. John Brown took up arms against his own country and he's one of the best Americans who ever lived.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

True, but as you just proved, most people think that the decision was just one obvious one. He should have fought for his country and against his friends and family. I think most people faced with the decision to fight with your family or against it would choose to fight with them.

Every single founder of America did as well.

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In the PC world today you're going to be labeled a racist. I know where you're coming from. Just like everyone from his time, you put your state before your country. And that's what he did, and if we were living at that time, we would all have done the same thing.

But people don't want to hear that these days. I don't know if he was a racist or a segregationist , but all I do know is he fought for his state which was the highest honor in those days.

Agreed.

What was the alternative? Paid labor? Get the fuck outta here.

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I don't get why everyone has to act like a child about this. He fought for his state(honorable thing) and fought for the right to enslave people(heinous thing). The need for a binary label on him and people of his time is enough to make even Rick blush.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

They did, but not to preserve their right to keep their slavery industry.

American Revolution was more based on taxation and failure to have representation in the British government.

It was said earlier that looking at the Confederacy through 2017 eyes, there is nothing good about their actions. I believe in state's rights to a point, but using them to protect slavery is not one of them.

I admire General Lee's ability as a military tactician and leadership qualities that inspired his soldiers to fight and succeed in some situations where they faced overwhelming odds in terms of the North's manpower and industrial advantage.

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Seems to me that you hate America. Am I off base?

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I really dont know if Lee fought for slavery. He fought for his state which was a slave state. But I don't know if his personal beliefs he was a pro slavery. It's a very complex topic and not black and white.

I don't know if George Washington was our first president but like most of us I go along with historical record when it's non-controversial and fairly well corroborated.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

No, I love America even with all her imperfectations.

To Great Britain, the colonies were rebelling, an act of treason. Any historian that looks at the reasons behind the rebellion will agree they were doing so for honorable reasons.

The Confederacy rebelled for an honorable principle: maintaining state sovereignty against a seemingly out of control federal government. They picked the wrong issue (slavery) to proceed with secession.

John Brown was brought up; he was hated in the South for his actions, while abolitionists and blacks cheered him. He took up arms against the federal government (Lee was in command of the forces who quelled the rebellion btw), an act of treason. But since his actions ignited the powder keg that led to the Civil War, he is considered a patriot.

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Were the Founding Fathers wrong for taking up arms against their own country? This sounds like a rather lazy framing (HE TOOK UP ARMS AGAINST HIS FORMER COUNTRY!) of a milquetoast take (TO FURTHER SLAVERY!).

Just say Lee, at the very least, materially supported the holding of other humans in bondage by his support of the South. That is universally and unequivocally a shitty thing to do.

Interesting article on Lee

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... -85017563/

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Isn't this still happening?

So much propaganda fueled BS.. Having read a few biographies of the Founding Fathers the point was to create a national identity post-Revolutuon and get past this crap..Madison flip flopped on this issue Jefferson ended up being a back stabber on it and Washington hated his guts at the end as a result. And yes, they all knew slavery was wrong, but due to their personal financial considerations they decided to kick the can down the road. Only Washington freed his slaves (upon his and Martha's death).

The state sovereignty argument is bullshit and crap Jefferson made up when he didn't like that Washington essentially sided with Hamilton on monetary policy and Jefferson saw that those policies would negatively impact the role of farming and Virginia in the economy. Madison at the Constitutional Convention wanted the central government to be able to veto state laws. Washington, Hamilton, Madison, and others, all wanted a strong central government given the failure of Articles of Confederation and, for Washington and Hamilton, the states' failure to fund and staff the Continental Army during the Revolution. Also, Jefferson had no problem asserting federal power when he was President, despite bitching and moaning whenever Washington or Adams did it.

Yeah, it's way more complicated than that. He never knew anything different than the paradigm in which he lived (slavery). That's not an excuse, but I would look at it this way. Imagine in 150 years that abortion is illegal and the practice is accepted as a human atrocity. Should the prism of his abortion support be the way that future society defines someone like Obama or any other pro-choice Democrat of the last century?

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Freedom is our Strength.

That's a good analogy.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

That's true but the time he lived in also included a lot of people recognizing slavery for the atrocity for it was and he stood up and fought against THAT.

So even in his time, he was still kind of a jerk.

Do you ever step back and listen to yourself?

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Go ahead, make your argument that slavery was not that bad. I'm listening.

You don't get celebrated by a country you declared war against.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

This is the correct perspective in my opinion, and a fundamentally relativist one. I thought you were more along the lines of a moral absolutist?

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY