At least they had jobs.

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And if the colonies had lost the Revolutionary war, George Washington would be the equivalent of Robert E Lee. The winners decide historical context.

I agree with your assessment 100%.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

You should be able to hate what he stood for, but still appreciate the fact that he was one of the best Generals to ever fight on American soil.

Similar to Rommel on the German side in WWI & II. Cearly the Nazi's were terrible, but he was one of the best generals to lead troops in WWII.

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It's really that simple. Slavery doesn't even need to be mentioned.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

But actually, that's factually untrue. He is very celebrated by many people in this country.

Oh well. He's dead. We got bigger fish to fry.

There is at least a quarter of this country that loves the idea of the guy and pine for the principles for which he stood.

Of course that same group has a reality problem as well

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Slavery does have to be mentioned though. Because the way we look at the "country" is different than the way it was looked at at that time. The states were much more autonomous. Prior to the Civil War one would say, "The United States are..." it was only some time after that that it became, "The United States is..." And it was less than 100 years after the American Revolution. How harsh could a nation born of revolution be on people who staged their own? There is only one argument against Lee and that is that he fought to perpetuate slavery.

I'm ambivalent about his statues. I like the history but I understand why people want to take them down. It's not like most of these Confederate monuments were built in the wake of the war. Most of them were put up in the early 20th Century as a way to stick it up the asses of black people in the South.

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Freedom is our Strength.

Do we give the New York terrorist the same type of "understanding"?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

i believe Robert E. Lee himself said both before and after the war that he found slavery abhorrent, but like many others of the time felt it a necessary institution. I have read quotes from him where he stated prior to the war that he felt liberation of the slaves was a worthwhile objective but felt the call to arms to stand with Virginia of the ultimate importance.

post war robert e lee was one of the driving voices of civil rights in the south. he did more for african americans than most people.

but whatever. the books about REL by Freeman and by Thomas are fascinating reads.

he thought that on the other side, african americans would be a stronger better people because of it. and he did what he could after it through schools and all sorts of other avenues to try and make that a reality.

Yes, open boarders! I don't want to pay a fair rate to cut my grass. Get the fuck outta here.

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You know what they say, when it comes to ending slavery, it's the thought that counts.

I'm sure as he was marching armies against our country because of his love of of Virginia in an attempt to take over the North that he felt really bad for the slaves he wanted to keep in permanent subhuman treatment!

I mean, I get it that society changes and controversial things at the time don't seem as controversial much later but you still don't get to be celebrated when you actively declare war against our country to protect ideas that proved to be abhorrent. If the South rose up today to attack the North because we let gays get married we wouldn't say "Well, they just love Alabama!".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Who are you crappin’, Rick? You would have been labeling anti-slavery folks as extremists who didn’t really have it that bad.

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The Beau Bergdahl of his time.

US soldier left his post for the enemy and soldiers died trying to bring him back

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Well, I assume I would have been a Northerner so I doubt it. In fact, I'd probably want the slaves to make a minimum of 10 cents an hour and pittenos would be making fun of me for it.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I don't think you're understanding the concept of "our country" as it relates to the U.S. in that time.

The fact that the guy fought to perpetuate slavery is enough. You don't have to do this dance to suggest he was treasonous.

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Freedom is our Strength.

I think abortion is a better example. Half the country is against it. If those people declared a war to eliminate abortion, which side would you be on?

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Freedom is our Strength.

It's not a dance. It was treason. As part of the reunification process it was not punished but it still was treason. In fact, it was probably a long term mistake to take it so easy on them as here we are many decades later dealing with the aftermath.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I would not take up arms against my country over abortion no matter which side my opinion fell upon.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

a-fucking-men. This country needs more John Browns.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

I don't think so. The entire idea of the federal government in D.C. controlling the states was controversial even into the mid-20th Century. The United States at the time of the Civil War was a much looser conference of of separate entities. It's not a perfect analogy, but it would be sort of like saying it's treason if Purdue left the Big Ten and became an independent.

Anyway, I'm not sure why we need to declare Lee treasonous. His legacy is that he fought to perpetuate slavery. Take his statue down.

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Freedom is our Strength.

Okay, so if there is a civil war over abortion and you live in Michigan and the Michigan state legislature votes to support the anti-abortion forces and is organizing the First Michigan Battalion to storm Chappaqua, New York, I assume you will volunteer.

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Freedom is our Strength.

I would not support my state attempting to leave the United States because of abortion no matter what side they were on. I don't think it can be said any clearer. My love of my home state would not supercede my love of the country. Work politically to get your way. Don't try and destroy the country over it.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

The dropped orders where from before Antietam.
At the start of the war Lincoln offered him command of all Union armies.
Plus if you read what he did at the end of the war that is kind of what makes him honorable. Instead of calling for his men to continue as insurrectionists,he told them to lay down arms and give up the fight.

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When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

and a livable wage

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

So if the federal government in D.C. was supporting a position that you saw as taking away a woman's rights, you would support that government? You're a patriot, Rick! But I'm also guessing you wouldn't think that the brigade led by Kamala Harris that was fighting to keep their rights to their bodies was "treasonous".

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Freedom is our Strength.

You keep on asking and my position is the same. I don't feel the issue is important enough one way or another to take up arms against my country over it. We have processes that don't involve civil war to figure these things out. Use those.

But, if I was willing to fight our own government over it, then I would understand that 150 years later people may judge me poorly for doing it and consider me a traitor if my reasons for doing so were to fight for what is now the "wrong side of history".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!