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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:45 am 
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The GOP’s tax bill would add $1.7 trillion to the national debt over the course of a decade, and increase the country’s debt-to-GDP ratio by 5.9 percentage points, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

The CBO analysis found that the bill would cut revenues by $1.4 trillion, which falls within the level Republicans allowed themselves in their budget resolution. Still, the additional cost of debt servicing would mean that the overall debt would increase by $1.7 trillion.

The GOP allowed themselves up to $1.5 trillion of deficit increases over a decade in their budget. Despite the additional costs of servicing debt, the CBO score shows the tax plan staying within the bounds, which means Republicans will still be able to pass the bill through budget reconciliation, a procedure that only requires a simple majority to pass in the Senate.

CBO also found that the nation’s debt-to-GDP ration, or debt burden, would rise to 97.1 percent of gross domestic product by 2027, 5.9 points higher than the current projection of 91.2 percent.

The deficit effects have been a major issue for Senate Republicans, in particular.

Trump administration officials have argued, variously, that GDP growth would eliminate some to all of the deficits produced by the tax plan.

The CBO score does not include macroeconomic effects that Republicans say will help temper the deficits.

Last sentence is a big caveat. Though, MANY economists believe the offsets won't be close.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:13 pm 
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So now the Senate has their own different version. It eliminates the state/local tax exemption. Not sure how else they figured to screw blue staters. There must be more...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:44 am 
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/14/why-arent-the-other-hands-up-a-top-trump-advisers-startling-response-to-ceos-not-doing-what-hed-expect/?utm_term=.34558f1de9d7

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President Trump's top economic adviser, Gary Cohn, looked out from the stage at a sea of CEOs and top executives in the audience Tuesday for the Wall Street Journal's CEO Council meeting. As Cohn sat comfortably onstage, a Journal editor asked the crowd to raise their hands if their company plans to invest more if the tax reform bill passes.

Very few hands went up.

Cohn looked surprised. “Why aren't the other hands up?” he said.

He laughed a little to lighten the mood, but it didn't cause many more hands to rise. Maybe the CEOs were tired. Maybe they didn't hear the question. It was a casual poll, but the lukewarm response seemed in tension with much of the public enthusiasm among corporations for a tax overhaul.

The president and his senior team have kept saying that the tax plan would unleash business investment in the United States — new factories, more equipment and more jobs. But, perhaps as the informal poll suggested, there are reasons to be doubtful that a great business investment boom would materialize.

First, American businesses are already enjoying record profits. If they wanted to invest, they have plenty of money on hand to do it, says Howard Silverblatt, a senior analyst at S & P Dow Jones Indices, where he tracks all the financial decisions of S & P 500 companies.

Second, executives themselves have indicated they probably won't use extra profits to invest. A Bank of America-Merrill Lynch survey this summer asked over 300 executives at major U.S. corporations what they would do after a “tax holiday” that would allow them to bring back money held overseas at a low tax rate. The No. 1 response? Pay down debt. The second most popular response was stock buybacks, where companies purchase some of their own shares to drive up the price. The third was mergers. Actual investments in new factories and more research were low on the list of plans for how to spend extra money.

The results of the Bank of America poll show a very similar pattern of corporate behavior to what happened after the 2004 tax repatriation holiday when U.S. companies spent the majority of their money coming back home from overseas on stock buybacks. It was a payday for Wall Street investors that generated little benefit to the middle class and wider economy.

The Trump White House says that it is going much further than President George W. Bush did in 2004 with the tax holiday. Trump's tax plan also calls for the biggest reduction in the corporate tax rate: from 35 percent down to 20 percent. The plan also includes a provision to allow companies to write off the costs of any new capital purchases in the next five years.

Many economists think these measures are likely to cause a modest pickup in investment, but the consensus view is that the bump would be modest.

“It would add somewhat to [the] economy for a year or so,” predicts Bob Baur, chief global economist at Principal Global Investors.

And some economists aren't even sure the small boost would happen. The reason is that interest rates are rising. It has been really cheap for businesses (and individuals with strong credit ratings) to borrow money to buy stuff in recent years. But that is starting to change. Interest rates are now over 1 percent and they are on track to be over 2 percent by the end of next year, meaning it costs more to get a loan. That could be a countervailing force to the tax cuts.

“Although lower corporate tax rates by themselves would incent more business investment because of the resulting lower after-tax cost of capital, the higher interest rates largely wash this out by increasing the cost of capital,” wrote Mark Zandi, senior economist at Moody's Analytics in a report Tuesday.

Nice.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:02 am 
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Hah, well that sucks. Since lower tax don't help growth, let's raise taxes. That can't hurt growth.

BTW, Mark Zandi is the biggest hack of all time. Terrible on every level. Diane Swonk and him are complete quote whores. Every writer knows you can go to those two to get some dumb, uniformed quote. Lazy journalism.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:19 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Hah, well that sucks. Since lower tax don't help growth, let's raise taxes. That can't hurt growth.

BTW, Mark Zandi is the biggest hack of all time. Terrible on every level. Diane Swonk and him are complete quote whores. Every writer knows you can go to those two to get some dumb, uniformed quote. Lazy journalism.

Why do you get so sensitive? No one said to raise taxes. There is simply some evidence that the main selling point for the corporate "reform" isn't exactly going to play out as parroted.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:22 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Hah, well that sucks. Since lower tax don't help growth, let's raise taxes. That can't hurt growth.

BTW, Mark Zandi is the biggest hack of all time. Terrible on every level. Diane Swonk and him are complete quote whores. Every writer knows you can go to those two to get some dumb, uniformed quote. Lazy journalism.

Why do you get so sensitive? No one said to raise taxes. There is simply some evidence that the main selling point for the corporate "reform" isn't exactly going to play out as parroted.


As MANY predicted.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:31 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Hah, well that sucks. Since lower tax don't help growth, let's raise taxes. That can't hurt growth.

BTW, Mark Zandi is the biggest hack of all time. Terrible on every level. Diane Swonk and him are complete quote whores. Every writer knows you can go to those two to get some dumb, uniformed quote. Lazy journalism.

Why do you get so sensitive? No one said to raise taxes. There is simply some evidence that the main selling point for the corporate "reform" isn't exactly going to play out as parroted.


For sure, you've got it all figured out. That's why I said it sucks. And the really good news is that we can raise taxes without impacting growth at all.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:40 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Hah, well that sucks. Since lower tax don't help growth, let's raise taxes. That can't hurt growth.

BTW, Mark Zandi is the biggest hack of all time. Terrible on every level. Diane Swonk and him are complete quote whores. Every writer knows you can go to those two to get some dumb, uniformed quote. Lazy journalism.

Why do you get so sensitive? No one said to raise taxes. There is simply some evidence that the main selling point for the corporate "reform" isn't exactly going to play out as parroted.


For sure, you've got it all figured out. That's why I said it sucks. And the really good news is that we can raise taxes without impacting growth at all.

You're taking this way too personally.

MANY simply want to know why their taxes may be increasing on an individual basis to fund corporate tax cuts which we're told would unleash business investment. But now we see two polls (albeit not perfectly objectively executed) where investment will not be a priority if cuts are implemented.

Add the strong disapproval by The National Federation of Independent Business representing small businesses and it makes someone think even more.

Or we can just ignore everything and listen to Gary Cohn. Whatever.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:45 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/14/why-arent-the-other-hands-up-a-top-trump-advisers-startling-response-to-ceos-not-doing-what-hed-expect/?utm_term=.34558f1de9d7

Quote:
President Trump's top economic adviser, Gary Cohn, looked out from the stage at a sea of CEOs and top executives in the audience Tuesday for the Wall Street Journal's CEO Council meeting. As Cohn sat comfortably onstage, a Journal editor asked the crowd to raise their hands if their company plans to invest more if the tax reform bill passes.

Very few hands went up.

Cohn looked surprised. “Why aren't the other hands up?” he said.

He laughed a little to lighten the mood, but it didn't cause many more hands to rise. Maybe the CEOs were tired. Maybe they didn't hear the question. It was a casual poll, but the lukewarm response seemed in tension with much of the public enthusiasm among corporations for a tax overhaul.

The president and his senior team have kept saying that the tax plan would unleash business investment in the United States — new factories, more equipment and more jobs. But, perhaps as the informal poll suggested, there are reasons to be doubtful that a great business investment boom would materialize.

First, American businesses are already enjoying record profits. If they wanted to invest, they have plenty of money on hand to do it, says Howard Silverblatt, a senior analyst at S & P Dow Jones Indices, where he tracks all the financial decisions of S & P 500 companies.

Second, executives themselves have indicated they probably won't use extra profits to invest. A Bank of America-Merrill Lynch survey this summer asked over 300 executives at major U.S. corporations what they would do after a “tax holiday” that would allow them to bring back money held overseas at a low tax rate. The No. 1 response? Pay down debt. The second most popular response was stock buybacks, where companies purchase some of their own shares to drive up the price. The third was mergers. Actual investments in new factories and more research were low on the list of plans for how to spend extra money.

The results of the Bank of America poll show a very similar pattern of corporate behavior to what happened after the 2004 tax repatriation holiday when U.S. companies spent the majority of their money coming back home from overseas on stock buybacks. It was a payday for Wall Street investors that generated little benefit to the middle class and wider economy.

The Trump White House says that it is going much further than President George W. Bush did in 2004 with the tax holiday. Trump's tax plan also calls for the biggest reduction in the corporate tax rate: from 35 percent down to 20 percent. The plan also includes a provision to allow companies to write off the costs of any new capital purchases in the next five years.

Many economists think these measures are likely to cause a modest pickup in investment, but the consensus view is that the bump would be modest.

“It would add somewhat to [the] economy for a year or so,” predicts Bob Baur, chief global economist at Principal Global Investors.

And some economists aren't even sure the small boost would happen. The reason is that interest rates are rising. It has been really cheap for businesses (and individuals with strong credit ratings) to borrow money to buy stuff in recent years. But that is starting to change. Interest rates are now over 1 percent and they are on track to be over 2 percent by the end of next year, meaning it costs more to get a loan. That could be a countervailing force to the tax cuts.

“Although lower corporate tax rates by themselves would incent more business investment because of the resulting lower after-tax cost of capital, the higher interest rates largely wash this out by increasing the cost of capital,” wrote Mark Zandi, senior economist at Moody's Analytics in a report Tuesday.

Nice.

Trickle down.

This is like when Pac Man Jones made it rain in that strip club and then started picking the bills up and putting them back in his pocket.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:52 am 
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I find it amusing that you think I am taking this personally. The bill does absolutely nothing for my personal tax bill. I am excited that it would dump the AMT as I am sick of filing my taxes twice each year.

For folks like me, the current system is great. In every way, globalization and the modern U.S. economy is working for me and folks like me. So if I was being purely selfish, I wouldn't want anything to change-ever! But I care about the long term direction of this country. It is why I post often about educational opportunities and doing things that will make our system sustainable in the long term, balanced budgets. I want our economic system to be globally competitive, so that jobs will come to the U.S. and wages of everyone will rise.

Both sides of the aisle are locked in this battle about tax code preferences (winners vs losers), deficits, and how much growth will result. My only concern is how do we make the U.S. the best place to do business. We have a lot of natural advantages like abundant resources- land, water, hydrocarbons. A large domestic economy. Rule of law. Low and abundant electricity. Fluid capital markets.

But there are many things around the edges that would make us even more competitive. Our convoluted tax system is a big blocker. Our very poor educational rankings are a long term problem. Our gird locked political system is an increasing burden. Our large debt burden and unfunded liabilities will ultimately hamper us.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:55 am 
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denisdman wrote:
My only concern is how do we make the U.S. the best place to do business.

Interesting.

What is the best country to do business in currently?

What is your issue with Kirkwood posting the quote about investment though?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:59 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
denisdman wrote:
My only concern is how do we make the U.S. the best place to do business.

Interesting.

What is the best country to do business in currently?

What is your issue with Kirkwood posting the quote about investment though?


It’s an oversimplification.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:01 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
denisdman wrote:
My only concern is how do we make the U.S. the best place to do business.

Interesting way to say it.

What is your issue with Kirkwood posting the quote about investment though?


I said, "Hah, well that sucks." So let me elaborate since I wasn't clear.

Corporate America is unfortunately locked in this mode of short term thinking. They take excess cash flow (which this tax plan would help increase) and do things like stock buybacks, dividend payments, and M&A. It is basically just playing around with the capital accounts or buying growth rather than investing for the long term through R&D and capital based projects. Now you have guys like Amazon doing everything possible to dump capital into long term gains. It is hard to believe what AWS has become. But there are so few guys out there looking to grow their companies.

I was genuinely sad to see what KW posted.

Now on the other hand, I love seeing comments that tax cuts won't help growth. That is why I made the sarcastic crack about raising taxes. Tax cuts won't pay for themselves, but they will generally create long term growth.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:03 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
denisdman wrote:
My only concern is how do we make the U.S. the best place to do business.

Interesting.

What is the best country to do business in currently?

What is your issue with Kirkwood posting the quote about investment though?


New Zealand.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:13 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
denisdman wrote:
My only concern is how do we make the U.S. the best place to do business.

Interesting.

What is the best country to do business in currently?

What is your issue with Kirkwood posting the quote about investment though?


It’s an oversimplification.

That doesn't explain the anger.

How bout "Well, Kwood, that's an oversimplification and those writers are suspect and sensationalist"


Oh well, not trying to give posting lessons, just thought it was an odd response.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:16 am 
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Was just giving you my opinion. I didn’t realize you and Dennis were having a tiff.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:18 am 
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denisdman wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
denisdman wrote:
My only concern is how do we make the U.S. the best place to do business.

Interesting.

What is the best country to do business in currently?

What is your issue with Kirkwood posting the quote about investment though?


New Zealand.

They are 38th on the happiness index (yes, that exists)

I just wonder if your theory is working out. Is New Zealand a lot better off than they would be with less business friendly conditions?

I mean, obviously it's a good thing, I just wonder if that is the key to a prosperous country or not


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:20 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Was just giving you my opinion. I didn’t realize you and Dennis were having a tiff.

1. Please jump off a tall building

2. Not a tiff, just wondering why the anger or whatever. denis explained. all good.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:20 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Was just giving you my opinion. I didn’t realize you and Dennis were having a tiff.


No Leash, why are you taking this so personally? Are you going to need alone time in your garage during these rainy conditions to center yourself?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:22 am 
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denisdman wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
denisdman wrote:
My only concern is how do we make the U.S. the best place to do business.

Interesting.

What is the best country to do business in currently?

What is your issue with Kirkwood posting the quote about investment though?


New Zealand.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

The majority of Americans couldn't begin to try to identify New Zealand on a globe and won't get your joke.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:25 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
denisdman wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
denisdman wrote:
My only concern is how do we make the U.S. the best place to do business.

Interesting.

What is the best country to do business in currently?

What is your issue with Kirkwood posting the quote about investment though?


New Zealand.

They are 38th on the happiness index (yes, that exists)

I just wonder if your theory is working out. Is New Zealand a lot better off than they would be with less business friendly conditions?

I mean, obviously it's a good thing, I just wonder if that is the key to a prosperous country or not


RPB, I approach these things like I approach my day to day business dealings. I "bank" things that we do well and work to improve on things we don't. And many times you benchmark your weaknesses against the best in class.

We are sixth in the global competitiveness rankings. We are doing many things well, and I wouldn't want to live or be in another country's situation. But that doesn't mean I want us to rest on that. We have an emerging China to contend with. We have long term financial structural issues, pension funding, Medicare, large debt to GDP, etc. We score poorly on the gini coefficient. And our primary education system continues to fall behind. On current trends, we won't be sixth in the decades to come.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:26 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
denisdman wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
denisdman wrote:
My only concern is how do we make the U.S. the best place to do business.

Interesting.

What is the best country to do business in currently?

What is your issue with Kirkwood posting the quote about investment though?


New Zealand.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

The majority of Americans couldn't begin to try to identify New Zealand on a globe and won't get your joke.


No joke, they're number one.

http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:27 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:30 am 
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There was a ewe joke yesterday by GD. I said you need to Ram her.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:36 am 
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denisdman wrote:
No joke, they're number one.

http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings


I'm sorry but I'm always skeptical of World Bank numbers and more importantly themotives behind them.

I think the term often bandied about is that they're more often than not economic hit men.

Plus their conclusions behind the ease of transferring property seem sketchy, and heavily weighted against novel concepts like zoning laws and construction permits, if not workplace safety.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:39 am 
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New Zealand. What's the population of New Zealand? :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:45 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
New Zealand. What's the population of New Zealand? :lol:


Just enough to dominate in...rugby?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:46 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
New Zealand. What's the population of New Zealand? :lol:


Hey I just answered the question. If you're going to limit your view of best in class to countries the same size of us, you're going to miss a lot of good ideas.

The entire Singapore model to civil administration is very interesting. Apparently they pay government bureaucrats as much or more than the private sector on the premise that they will attract better employees. By all accounts, they have the best civil service in the world.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:48 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
denisdman wrote:
No joke, they're number one.

http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings


I'm sorry but I'm always skeptical of World Bank numbers and more importantly themotives behind them.

I think the term often bandied about is that they're more often than not economic hit men.

Plus their conclusions behind the ease of transferring property seem sketchy, and heavily weighted against novel concepts like zoning laws and construction permits, if not workplace safety.


Fair point. But our tax system (only global tax system and high marginal rates) are one area where we are clearly uncompetitive. The inversion trend is hard evidence of that. Our education system is very low in the Pisa rankings vs many of our first world competitors. Longer term, these problems will offset all the natural advantages that we have.

If you guys don't care, well then fine with me. And folks wonder why we have gridlock.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:53 am 
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I'm sold.

Cut the corporate rate. Everything else will fall into place.


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