tommy wrote:
One Post wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
And of course we should take immigrants from horrible places, but we should make sure we can assimilate them. I think immigrant enclaves will tear America apart. And these enclaves are different than the Irish ghettoes or Little Italys in that the recent immigrants don't seem to have any desire to assimilate. We have to hop their children will against the wishes of the parents. It is a country's right to regulate who comes and how many.
About two years ago I heard a sociologist speak about immigration issues. Over the course of American immigration patterns, at any given time the opinion was that the prior immigrant group was a benefit to the country, but the current immigrant group was a detriment to the country. This has been the case regardless of time and regardless of country of origin.
There is no reason to think that someone from Haiti, Ghana, or El Salvador will be any less inclined to adhere to American values and desire to become part of the American culture than someone from Greece, Italy, or Poland was/is.
The same tired anecdotes about current ethnic groups not wanting to assimilate has been well worn and proven to be totally inaccurate.
Remember when Al Smith couldn't get elected president because the country thought that an Irish Catholic would be more loyal to the Pope, than he would be to America? I agree, it seems silly.
Little Italys, Chinatowns, Greektown, all of those are tourist attractions in various cities, 100, or 70, or 50 years ago, they were just poverty stricken parts of major cities where an ethnic group congregated for support, protection, assistance, and a shared struggle. I'm guessing 35 years from now it's going to be the same thing with Little El Slavadors, Little Africas, etc.
You may be right, but contexts change, and so this group of immigrants may be different. We can't assume they won't be. They are also treated differently by the Federal and local governments. The US is not the same country is was in 1880 or 1920; we also have no plans to suffer through two world wars and a Great Depression in order to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers. It may very well happen that they turn out like the old immigrants, but that is not a given; the variables are so much different.
A few things to unpack here so I'll take them one at a time:
1. "We have no plans ...to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers" - I'm interested in this Americanization program that you speak of. Was it a federal government program? Was it a state program? Was it a federal/state joint effort? Was private industry involved? What agencies administered this Americanization plan? I'm fairly knowledgeable about US History but I have never hear of this Americanization program that took place sometime in the 20th century. Please enlighten me. I'd like to know who proposed this program, was it done prior to the 20th century? There were immigrants prior to the 20th century, was the same program used to Americanize them?
2. "The US is not the same country as it was in 1880, or 1920" - Agreed, this applies as much to 1950, 1972, 1985, 2003, as it does to 2018. I don't get what you are saying, are you saying that the only successful immigration in US history took place in 1880 or 1920? I don't have the stats on hand to back this up, but I'd guess there were about 4 Koreans in the United States in 1920, and probably 3 people from Vietnam, the majority of immigrants from those countries arrived in the US much later than either of the two (seemingly random) dates you referenced. I don't hear anyone crowing about those two immigrant populations destroying the fabric of America. Are you saying that only the conditions of 1880 or 1920 were conducive to successful immigration? If you are, that's not only historically inaccurate, but just fucking dumb.
3. "They are treated differently by governments" - yeah, no doubt, but the government has treated various immigrant groups differently, some better some worse. The current policies towards immigrants are no more punitive or beneficial than any past treatment of immigrant groups.
4. "The variables are so much different" - Again, agreed that the United States is not frozen in time, and people are not frozen in time. I don't think anyone would disagree with you that the world is a static place, but the two things that aren't much different are: (a) for better or worse over the past 200+ years America has been one of the most consistent places in the world where someone can become successful or improve their/their family's standing in life based on hard work, merit, achievement, and dedication, regardless of origin, background, education, alienate, parental success, etc.; and (b) the incalculable overwhelming majority of immigrants to this country regardless of where they come from, what color they are, what their religion is, if their country is a "shithole" or not, come here to try to make a better life for themselves and/or their family. That's why they are coming here, that is no different from any other immigrant group save one.
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