It is.



Anyway, what are the dog whistles in this thread?

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Special Alert Special Alert


*Thread derailment* *Thread derailment* *Thread derailment* *Thread derailment*


I refuse to partake in any discussions that derail the thread. If you seek to engage in such banter I'd hope that you find another poster.

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There also was an ancient state of Palestine.

Theodore Herzl also didn't wish for the Zionist state to be located in modern day Israel. If this location was so historically important then why did he wish for the Israeli state to be located elsewhere?

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The founding of Israel displaced no one. Get that basic fact through your thick skull. What did displace people was the Arab response and rejection to partition. Had partition been granted, Arabs living within Israel would have simply become citizens of the new state. Many in fact did and remain as such with full voting and legal rights that come with citizenship.

However, many Arabs (at the behest of Egypt and Syria) left their villages so that the Arabs could drive the Jews into the sea. They thought there was no way that the lightly armed Jews would be able to repel the 6 Arab armies which were invading. Little did they know that the Jews had a will to fight which was more powerful than the Egyptian tanks. Had those Arabs simply stayed put, they would be living there today as Israeli citizens. the descendants of those who made the correct choice to stay are still there. The so-called Nakhba is nothing more than one of the greatest self-owns of the last century.

You are ignoring that fact that Israel was long on the road to becoming an independent nation before WWII. The Jewish community was already there and flourishing with infrastructure able to absorb them. The Balfour Declaration and Peel Commision both predated the extermination camps. Israel was going to be formed one way or another as the Jewish population was the majority on the lands which were to be partitioned.

Furthermore, to ask Jews to say on European lands would be an insult. 1: they had no historical connection to those lands. 2: It was insulting to ask them to stay on lands where they had just suffered the greatest of traumas when there was an option where they could live admist a flourishing group of their own

As for this mythical "Palestine." Please tell me when it was ever an independent country and what in 1948 made a person you call a Palestinian different from someone we could call a Jordanian today or Syrian today. What made them an exclusive ethnic group or nation? The Palestinians became an invented people after 1967. That is why the West Bank and Gaza never became a state of Palestine from 1949-1967 when under Jordanian and Egyptian control.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

There was a Roman province, but there never was a state called Palestine. Even then that province was just renamed from Judea as the Romans tried (and failed) to wipe out any Jewish life in that land after Bar Kochba's revolt.

There has never been an independent nation called Palestine nor was there ever a separate ethnic group of people called Palestinians prior to the Arab-Israeli conflict

Please oh please tell me the mythical history of this independent nation called Palestine.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

The founding of Israel displaced no-one. Get that basic fact through your thick skull. What did displace people was the Arab response and rejection to partition. Had partition been granted, Arabs living within Israel would have simply become citizens of the new state. Many in fact did and remain as such with full voting and legal rights that come with citizenship.

However, many Arabs (at the behest of Egypt and Syria) left their villages so that the Arabs could drive the Jews into the sea. They thought there was no way that the lightly armed Jews would be able to repel the 6 Arab armies which were invading. Little did they know that the Jews had a will to fight which was more powerful than the Egyptian tanks. Had those Arabs simply stayed put, they would be living there today as Israeli citizens. the descendants of those who made the correct choice to stay are still there. The so-called Nakhba is nothing more than one of the greatest self-owns of the last century.

You are ignoring that fact that Israel was long on the road to becoming an independent nation before WWII. The Jewish community was already there and flourishing with infrastructure able to absorb them. The Balfour Declaration and Peel Commision both predated the extermination camps. Israel was going to be formed one way or another as the Jewish population was the majority on the lands which were to be partitioned.

Furthermore, to ask Jews to say on European lands would be an insult. 1: they had no historical connection to those lands. 2: It was insulting to ask them to stay on lands where they had just suffered the greatest of traumas when there was an option where they could live admist a flourishing group of their own

As for this mythical "Palestine." Please tell me when it was ever an independent country and what in 1948 made a person you call a Palestinian different from someone we could call a Jordanian today or Syrian today. What made them an exclusive ethnic group or nation? The Palestinians became an invented people after 1967. That is why the West Bank and Gaza never became a state of Palestine from 1949-1967 when under Jordanian and Egyptian control.[/quote]




Yes the concept behind Zionism predates WWII but WWII provided the impetus and moral standing for creating Israel. It is no accident that it was formed in 1948.


As for the Balfour Declaration you stated just last week that it played minimal to no role in establishing Israel. You implied that Israel was created essentially on the backs of the Israelis. You denied that there was foreign intervention. Now you state there was foreign intervention involved. WHich one is it?

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Partition was explored in 1939 and would have been granted within the next decade with or without a Holocaust. The British withdrew in May 1948. With the people of the land once again in control of their own destiny, the Jewish population declared a state upon lands which they were in majority.

Those events happen with or without the Balfour Declaration. All it required was the foreign power to leave. The Arabs had the chance to declare their own state upon the lands which they were the majority population. They refused to do so as they thought they could deny the Jews their self determination and ultimately sought to finish Hitler's work. As we all know, they failed.

As I've said, the so-called Nakba was a real self-own on the part of the Arabs.

The only foreign help Israel had in 1948 was the departure of the British, and that wasn't done to help Israel. It was done as the UK was lowering up the flag and leaving throughout the globe in the late 40s

You also haven't told me what makes the Palestinians a separate ethnic group from their surrounding Arab brothers or when this fictional country of Palestine ever existed.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine.

There was a land known as Ancient Palestine.

That is common knowledge.

You stated that Europe was not the home of Jewish people yet The vast majority of the World's Jewish population resided in Europe.

We will simply disagree on this. I'm not interested in furthering this. My notions on the creation of Israel aren't likely to change and neither are yours. I will simply bow out on this one.

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That was a Roman province. It was never an independent nation. Please tell me when this independent nation was founded, who its leaders were, what its borders were, what type of government it had, etc.

I don't think you can tell me that.

Even your link calls it a "region." It never once refers to an independent state called Palestine. Do you read your links before you post them here? We already know the answer to that is no.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

Post Holocaust, this was simply not true. There were no Jewish communities left to go to. They had all been destroyed with absolutely nothing left. The only Jewish communities left int he world were the US and Israel. Those who tried to return to communities in Europe were met with pogroms.

You are completely ignorant of history and ignore the Kielce pogrom. You should engage further here because you are completely ignorant on this topic and could stand to actually learn some basic facts.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

No i always conceived it to be a region. Interesting that the Judea state was located within the "Palestinian region" too.

When i stated ancient Palestine i merely referenced Ancient Palestine. Don't think i attached statehood upon it.

You stated that the term Palestine didnt come into existence til 48 and that is simply false. That name applied to a distinct group of people and it dates back centuries.

You continue to falsely imply that it was created as a counter to the term Israeli and its not true.

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That land was never called Palestine until after 135 when the Romans renamed Judea in an attempt to try to remove the Jewish connection to the land after the Bar Kochba Revolt.

A region is not an independent country. Tell me, is the American West a country? Is Western Europe a country? Is the Arabian Peninusla a country? No, they are just stretches of land. There are certain things which make a country. There has been an independent Judea. There has never been an independent Palestine.

I will ask you once again, but in 1947, what made a "Palestinian" different from a Syrian or Jordanian? What made them a specific ethnic group? If they were a specific ethnic group, then why did they never declare their own state from 1949-1967 when living under Egypt or Jordan?

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

There wasn't an "Israel" at the end of WWII. The same animosity that existed in the Middle East would have existed elsewhere. Do you believe that the Germans would have been able to put up much resistance if a Jewish state would have been carved out in Germany? You simply don't know what you are talking about.


Germany was carved into 2 zones with foreign powers essentially controlling each zone. If a sliver of German land was carved out for the purpose of creating a "Jewish state" they wouldn't have had to power to prevent it. It could have been implemented as part of reparations and the Germans would have simply had to get over it shit.

They had more of a moral and ethical high ground to create a Jewish state in Europe than anywhere. Most of the World wide Anti Semitism exists there.


Again Europeans (which with each statement you make further validates what I am saying) would rather have the "Jewish nuisance" exist in the Middle East. That is all it happens to be.


I have several books on this and I will go back and reread them. It has been a few years. Basic facts remain the same However.

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Wow, this is awful.

Terrible thread today.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Can those of us who have shit to do today get a tl dr?

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The two posts before yours sum this up pretty nicely.

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Israel deported illegal immigrants. That's bad because some had to go back to countries that aren't as good as Israel. It's a big deal for some reason that they did it like most other countries do but no one can explain why.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Isreal is deporting people
So does everyone else
Something something something Palastine (or Palatine...I don't know)
IMU hates Jews
Why doesn't anyone pick on Canada

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There wasn’t an “Israel” but there was the Yishuv, which was pretty much a functioning state set up within the British Mandate. The Jews knew the British would leave and that they would need to have their own functioning government. As early as the 1920s they had already set up a legislative body for themselves, set up municipalities with varying levels of autonomy, had built an infrastructure, and had a self-defense force (the Haganah and its elite Palmach units). There was a functioning state 25 years before the British withdrawal. None of this existed for the Jews in Europe. To give them land with nothing but rubble upon it would have been cruel. It would be asking them to live upon a land in which they were strangers and had just suffered the greatest of tragedies.

It was under the Yishuv that major Jewish cities had been established. These were Tel Aviv, Jerusalem (up until the large Jewish return, all of Jerusalem was within the walls of the old city, thus most of Jerusalem was built by the Yishuv), Beersheva, Netanya, Tiberius, Tzvat, Rishon, etc.

In Europe there was absolutely nothing. No synagogues were left, no Jewish homes were left, no shops, etc. In Israel, there was already a vibrant and thriving Jewish nation, even before independence was declared. That is why Israel was the only place that made sense for the Jews to go. Plus the Jews living within the Yishuv were prepared and ready to absorb their brothers.

No one gave Israel to the Jews. The Jews built Israel up from nothing. Arabs were free to live within Israel so long as they recognized its existence. Many did just that and they live there today.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

Also, once again I ask, what in the late 1940s made someone a Palestinian and what separated them from and made them distinct vs. other Arabs in the Levant?

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

I don't have a "problem" with it. But it is hypocritical of the Israeli leaders. However, it seems like a large number of Israelis are seeking to allow the refugees to stay. We'll see how it all shakes out. Shakes reference intended.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

This is false. The Greeks referred to the land as Palestine as early as 5th century BC.

Again, and as always, Ogie's exact argument is also grounds to disband the United States, since it is not formed from one single ethnoculutral background, separate from any others.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Joe got indoctrinated at the Saturday mahjong game in the common room

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Nothing just like you'd be hard pressed to define what constitutes an Israeli (Pre 1948) person. If you were a descendant of the region where ancient Palestine existed then that makes you Palestinian.


You have continued to make the rather false claim that the Balfour Declaration played minimal to no role. If that is the case then why did the Jewish population increase sixfold (Less than 100,000) to (More than 600,000) After the Declaration was made? You don't believe that this Declaration was a direct cause of said population increase?


What accounts for the increase in population if not the Balfour Declaration?

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Palestine is called Palestine in the Bible which I believe was written prior to 1948.

I did a search here, no results found

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... chtype=all

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

I can tell you what a Jew is pre-1948. Israel was founded as a nationstate, which means it is a state for a particular nation or group of people. In this case, the Jewish people. You can easily define the Jewish people as a nation due to the link of a common heritage, common language, common origin story, and shared genetics.

I still don't know how you can define Palestinians as a nation or distinct group as nothing separates them from any other Arab in the Levant. Palestinians are an invented people, they never existed as a distinct group until post partition.

As for the growing Jewish population, that came from migration and the purchase of lands. The migration into those lands was done in a legal manner and eventually the Jews had enough of a presence to justify the establishment of a nation, especially when there was no government over the land once the British departed. This is all independent of the Balfour Declaration.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

The Greeks never called the land Palestine. You are mistaking Palestine with Philistine, who shares nothing in common with so-called Palestinians. Philistines were Greek in origin where as the so-called Palestinians are certainly Arabic in origin and most likely descendants of the groups which came into the lands from the Arabian Peninsula in the 7th century when the Caliphate was formed. That is why Palestinians are Arab and not Greek. That is also why they are non-distinct as an ethnic group from Arab peoples within Syria and Jordan.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson