I was gonna get into the economic and cultural inconsistencies in educational opportunities but decided I'm not smart enough to discuss it. So I'll just agree with what you said rather than think of something myself.

It took awhile, but I finally found a thread in which I am completely agreeing with Mike AND Tall Midget.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

If you have 100 high school graduates and 100 college graduates do a series of tests to measure intelligence in various ways who would you expect to do better? Is it your assertion that the scores would be the same between both groups among all the tests?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

_________________

I think you have it backwards, Mike.

Being a smart person compels you to make choices with positive consequences, like getting more education.
So I think being smart, makes you do smart things.

_________________
“Mmmm. Move over, eggs. Bacon just got a new best friend - fudge.”

Depends on the test.

_________________

I know IQ is not a perfect metric, but here are some sites that answer the question of who has a higher IQ, high school or college graduates.

http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/iq.htm
Mean of college graduates, 115
Mean of high school graduates, 105

http://www.2h.com/iq-results-factors.html


Now I already know the response, that IQ does not accurately gauge intelligence. That is a fair criticism and I agree with that. I would however like to know what criteria you would use to gauge intelligence.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Why would you assume getting more education has positive consequences for everyone, or imply that not getting more education doesnt have positive consequences for those that dont --- Yes I think I just used a triple negative but Im not a college graduate so Im not that smart.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

115?
jeez....that's lower than I expected.

_________________
@audioidkid

Give me an example of one where high school graduates would outperform college graduates since IQ is one way to gauge intelligence.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I assume everyone is a drooling moron until they prove otherwise

I hope no one is taking what I'm writing the wrong way. I am not talking about individual cases but I don't see any way you can make an argument that the average college graduate isn't smarter than the average high school graduate. That's the thing about averages though, they are only a number.

I am sure that there are people on this board who are smarter than I am who don't have a college degree.

Bill Gates doesn't have a college degree and is the most successful person in America.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I don't make societal rules, I just play by them, and the society values and rewards academic knowledge.
For all I know, I could be a skilled neurosurgeon, but until I can prove it in an a highly controlled academic setting, I'll have a tough time building a practice.

Also, I'm not talking about education exclusively in its purely academic sense, real life experiences counts for something as well.
You seem to dismiss the effectiveness of an academic setting as a way of acquiring "smarts" while I view it as a safe and more efficient method of learning from the experiences of others.
To quote the line from Tommy Boy " I could get a good look at (read learn) a t-bone by sticking my head up a bulls ass, but I'd rather take my butcher's word for it"

_________________
“Mmmm. Move over, eggs. Bacon just got a new best friend - fudge.”

pregnancy test?

_________________
@audioidkid

Um.. yes I am. How does one acquire "smarts" exactly?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

He got all of that one

_________________
“Mmmm. Move over, eggs. Bacon just got a new best friend - fudge.”

Thread over.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

But the problem is that going to college increases your IQ, given that it varies over time depending on your social and physical environment. So college graduates may be realizing their potential to a greater extent than non-graduates, but they are not genetically superior to non-graduates in the amount of potential they possess.

_________________

So, you are saying people are born smart and that cannot be changed, correct?

_________________
You know me like that.

Which is exactly why, in response to the original question by FavreFan, that you would assume that a college graduate was smarter than a high school graduate. It's like assuming that someone who played college sports is a better athlete than someone who didn't. I may have been just as good as someone who went to a division 3 school but 5 years later they are expected to be better. That may not be the case but a majority of the time it would be.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I am saying the opposite.

_________________

I disagree. Performing better on an I.Q. test doesn't mean one is more intelligent, given that one's intelligence is frequently understood as his or her intellectual potential.

_________________

I dont know if people are born smart, though genetics certainly influences is it, but I do think people are basically who they are by the time they are 18 and decide to go to college or not.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Since you already said that you're not that smart, the quotes indicate slang.

Anyway, here is what I mean:

A gunshot victim is just as knowledgable about the effects of a bullet on a human tissue as an college educated ballistics expert.
Both will tell you that you're better off avoiding getting shot - that's "smarts" both have.

Only one will be qualified to reconstruct a crime scene based on positioning of the entry and exit angles, the caliber of the round and the probable trajectory - that's intelligence that you get paid for in the real world.

_________________
“Mmmm. Move over, eggs. Bacon just got a new best friend - fudge.”

So then what metric would an average high school graduate outperform an average college graduate? I can't think of one that they would, but we have at least one(IQ) that is proven. I also could speculate on things such as math, history and others but I don't have hard data to back that up.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Thats true but lets take that ballistics expert and compare him to the guy that cleans carpets for a living and didnt go to college. The guy that cleans carpets has much more knowledge of what kind of chemicals have what kind of effects, what to use on different types of carpets, etc. then the ballistics expert. They both are smarter in their respective occupations. I would still need to talk to them about a variety of things to see which one I would consider smarter, although its probable that the ballistics expert/college grad probably has more knowledge on a wider variety of subjects, like TM said it doesnt necessarily mean he is "smarter" in the potential intellectual capacity definition of the term.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

No you aren't. You said that going to college increases your IQ so you cannot necessarily use that as a measure since non-graduates do not have that advantage to increase their IQ.

So, despite the fact that non-graduates do not use their potential, you still can't use the IQ test because they possess that potential which invalidates the test.

In other words, two twins have the same "smarts", one goes to college, the other doesn't. The college one has a higher IQ due to environmental factors but is not smarter because they went to college and had that advantage on the IQ test. So, the IQ test is not a valid indicator.

_________________
You know me like that.

Girl D.

_________________
"Tubby? Oh yes, Tubby."

Then why is that "smart" people do so many dumb things. Smarts never made anyone do anything.

Smarts without wisdom has led to some of history's biggest monsters. I am far more compelled to hire others based on their personal story. Smarts are overrated, character decides better than intelligence almost every time.

Yes, it's true that the IQ test might be a better measure of what you've already learned, rather than what you could learn, but in the same context intelligence is a measure of one's ability to utilize acquired knowledge, not a measure of ability to acquire knowledge.

_________________
“Mmmm. Move over, eggs. Bacon just got a new best friend - fudge.”