I'll admit most people who defend cops who shoot unarmed civilians will condemn the cops at Ruby Ridge and Waco, just as most who question the shooting of unarmed men by cops will defend Ruby Ridge and Waco because they don't like the politics of those involved.

Personally, I think both cops who murder unarmed civilians and the Federal law enforcement at Waco and Ruby Ridge deserve death.

It's awful how people have blinders to defend one set of law enforcement based upon politics yet defend the other when both deserve nothing but contempt.

Conservatives defend local cops who shoot a black man and liberals defend cops who shoot the wife of a loner in the woods who had been illegally set up via entrapment.

_________________
“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

culkin is David Thibodeau, if that's what you mean.

i think the mini-series is also giving a bit of a conscience to some of the ATF/FBI characters. they massively fucked this up, coming off ruby ridge. it's unconscionable that they had this pseudo messiah in their grasp, and got too hot headed and muscle brained for their own good, and almost a hundred people died because of their incompetence.

koresh could have rightly been outed as the lunatic (and rapist) that he was. instead, he can be a martyr in the eyes of some.

Bingo

_________________

Got a chance to watch the 2 part thing from A&E. It was well done. It was crazy how the guys supporters were still believers in him today. The one guy thought he was going to resurrect in his life time.

Has there ever been any proof of how the fire started? Was it Koresh that did it?

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Koresh was on the floor with a gunshot wound to the head. The fire was started by jackbooted FBI thugs. You know, the same jackbooted thugs that attempted a coup d'etat against the Trump presidency. Ask DannyB. He knows.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Has that been proven?

Couldn't Koresh have started the fire and then killed himself? That one survivor guy talked about Koresh had planned to burn the place if things got bad

I don't get why the FBI would have started the fire? They busted in with tear gas. Why would they do that and then set it ablaze?

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I’m of the belief that Koresh ordered the fire. The FBI seemed genuinely surprised that it started. Some of the Davidians had put gas masks on.

I think he basically went apocalypse knowing that everything was fucked thanks to the idiocy of the ATF.

I think that is where I am at as well.

I think he had planned things out if they went bad and in his mind he would be memorialized as a martyr.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Exactly. And it worked with his followers.

I started the mini series tonight. As I was watching it I kept thinking the dude who played Koresh looked so familiar. Finally looked him up! TIM RIGGINS! lol

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Yep, Taylor Kitsch. He’s damn good. Take your lickin’!

Koresh was also accused of having sex with teenage girls.

Whether or not they executed the plan correctly, there was plenty of cause to intervene, Lock up Koresh, and break up this group of insane whack-jobs.

_________________

The ATF/FBI did more then "just fuck this up". They massacred these people and lied about most of the details.

*Critical documentation/video was missing (deleted).

*The tanks did more then just "deploy" the gas. They took off sections of the building and rammed into the children's bedrooms.

* One survivor said it looked like the tanks where building a bon fire with the depree around the bulding.

*The gas they used was more toxic then what is normally used. The children couldn't fit the gas mask. Some most likely died before the fires.

*The gassing was suppose to last 2 days. They used all their inventory in less then 6 hrs. They had more flown in to "re-supply". One of the ATI agents in charge said with a smile on his face that he launched at least 90! into the building himself.
Remember, the kids did not have gas masks and had to suffer for 2 days. ATF should not have been firing into a building with children from day 1.

*The government had Delta Forces/snipers fire on people as they tried to flee from the flames. A strike force was used in the back of the building with a tank that rammed into the hallway that they where bunkered in. You can see delta fire their guns behind the tank into the building. The FBI said no shot where fired on the last day. That was proven to be a lie.

*The same guy that killed the mother holding a baby at Rudy Ridge was the same sniper they had aiming at the building at WACO. They found several bullet casings where he was stationed at WACO. He claims he didn't fire any shots.

*They had plenty of chances to arrest David Karresh. He jogged down a public street every day and visited town often. The only reason they wanted to raid the ranch was because they needed funding because the Democrats cut the ATF budget and they wanted to show America that they where needed to "protect" the people from evil cults like The Branch Davidians.

Janet Reno and the ATF tactical command leaders should never be given a conscience for their murderous actions in WACO.

Waco was flat out murder at the hands of government. I'm not going to lie, but if McVeigh wasn't a Nazi and had just blown up an FBI or ATF installation instead of a building in a busy downtown with a daycare in it, he may be viewed very differently today.

it wasn't the 1st case either. Before that there was Ruby Ridge and the MOVE bombing in Philadelphia.

Ron Paul has said that much of the Middle Eastern terrorism we see today is "blowback" for our foreign policy. I'd argue Oklahoma City was blowback for domestic policies.

_________________
“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

_________________

Enjoyed tonight's episode. In their portrayal of the opening of the siege they have Koresh coming outside to try and talk and then that quickly beginning the shooting as they kill a couple dogs. Has there been any evidence to show if that is the way it started? Is there any reason to not believe that the ATF fired first?

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

i think the ATF started shooting first. i think they wanted a reason to fire, and just decided it was time. kitsch is going to get some serious award nominations in the upcoming season. his performance is downright mesmerizing. i think that's important to portray koresh that way, because it has to be credible he could get followers to believe in him as devoutly as they did.

i don't think all of his intentions were altruistic or genuine, and i still think he took some child brides. and anyone who thinks they're the messiah is just completely fucked up in the head.

there were some "tv movie" moments, like anytime they showed perry dying in bed. it was a bit overacted. but anytime michael shannon or taylor kitsch are on screen, it's very credible.

I seem to remember a tv movie or miniseries on Waco years ago. I think the guy from the old TV show Wings played Koresh. Why is it so long to revisit again?

_________________
Elections have consequences.

The ATF had brought video cameras to record the raid. When congress tried to review the cameras to see who shot first, the ATF said the data had been "lost". Congress asked how they could lose just the footage of them storming the door and the ATI responded, "I don't know."

There is FBI video of D.Karresh talking to the negotiator. They sent a video camera into the compound to show that the kids he sent out to the FBI where doing fine. Karresh said no one identified themselves as they walked up to the house. He said it is a sad day for America when the ATI can just come in guns blazing shooting. He says you don't have to believe he is the messenger of god, but at least believe in family and that he will defend his family against Babylon (ATI) it is what god told him he was meant to do. The ATI basically enforced everything he was teaching by their aggressive actions against the Davidians. They just shot the dogs and then into the door where Karresh was standing. He was shot in the hand and in the lower left side of the stomach (same place Jesus was stuck with the spear). The man that was standing next to Karresh was shot through the door and killed. His daughter says on camera, "thanks for killing my dad an unarmed man." Karresh yells, stop shooting at us, we have women and children in here and then all hell breaks loose and 6 Davidians are killed and 4 ATI agents are killed trying to get into the compound. A mother of one of the children, said they just kept firing into the walls and through the windows and I had to do what I needed to defend myself and my children. They where shooting everything and we thought we would be killed.

One of the fathers was working in the garage and tried to get to his wife and daughter. He was ambushed by 6 ATI agents and shot 11 times then left for 5 days in a ditch. An autopsy was performed by request of his family and they found two point blank shots in the skull of his head.

The ATI had told the Davidians that if any more people came out of the building they would be considered a threat and shot. This is on tape with the hostage negotiator talking to the second in command to Karresh (forgot his name) and the negotiator basically says tactical is calling the shots and that they will shoot to kill because they are tired of waiting.

Why are you impugning these honorable men and women who work for the U.S. government? Are you an agent of Putin?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Federal agents are above reproach. Only local cops and Republicans lie. The feds don't even lie if things get fast and furious.

_________________
Elections have consequences.

God works in mysterious ways and that is from the gun of ATF agents.

Everything happens for a reason.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yes it is true that FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi, who murdered Vicki Weaver at Ruby Ridge, was also at Waco and very clearly murdered people there as well. He conveniently had his rifle rebarreled right after Waco so that they could never match any rounds to it.

Local authorities in Idaho actually indicted him for his actions at Ruby Ridge, but the Janet Reno DOJ stepped in and forced them to drop the case.

_________________
“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

Great scene last night where one says I feel like we should call 911, but who do you call when it is your own gov't attacking you.

And Tim Riggins is doing a great job.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

It's important to note that there was a total of 3 snipers and a tank that rammed though the back wall with Delta infantry shooting into the compound, the day the fire broke out. People often say, "well why didn't they just leave the building when it was on fire?"
Because the Delta force was there to terminate them, not to evacuate them. Delta Force was a off the radar terrorist military tactical unit. They should have never been deployed on American soil.

That fire was set by the ATF. You think it was a coincidence that they shot hundreds of flammable gas cartridges on a very windy day?

They did call 911 the first day and said the ATF is shooting at us.

i wanna know if Koresh was really a fan of "the lawnmower man". i'd have left the compound at that point.