I don't believe learning is something that requires "trained professionals" and there is a mountain of evidence that supports that conclusion. But hey, I don't want to get sideways with the teacher's unions. I do think most of their members care and do a good job. I just don't think their skills are as critical to their students' learning as they would have us believe. If they were, home-schooled children- most of whom are taught by untrained and highly religious parents- wouldn't be able to outperform the students of the trained professionals to the degree that they do. Are you familiar with "unschooling"?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

So do I. And there's a lot of evidence that transitioning isn't the proper treatment, especially for someone as young as 17.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Well, my guess is like the private school debates, it's about the selection bias that keeps out the underperforming kids along with them in general being more affluent since they can rely on one income to live on.

If I'm as good or better than the average teacher at my local school then that's absolutely pitiful. Now, maybe you see me educate JLN and pittmike every day on here and you are giving me a huge compliment but I don't think I'd educate my kid as well.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Well, it was just starting the process so it wasn't like they weren't going to try just about everything else.

I think that would have been a stronger argument for the parents to make though. It seems as if they simply said they were against it for religious reasons.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm saying that the home environment is much more critical to a child's learning than who the child's teachers are. That's exactly why more affluent students/schools do better. That isn't a criticism of poor parents. It's about luxuries/time/etc. that poor people don't have.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The support environment is. I'll still trust a trained professional to teach my kids over myself.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

But we're back to parents' rights to make choices for their underage children. I don't think their motives for making those choices should be in question. Frankly, it comes off as anti-Christian dogma. It doesn't matter that you and I find someone's Christian beliefs absurd. The truth is, most Americans don't. I think you would have a better argument if the parents were trying to force a procedure on the child. Like female genital mutilation or perhaps even male circumcision, for example. I wonder how the judge would have handled a case like that and if the media would be treating the parents differently.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I'll take the kid living in a comfortable two-parent home with plenty of food and you and Caller Bob as his teachers over a kid living in public housing and with food uncertainty who has Noam Chomsky and spanky as his teachers if we're betting on who will score higher on the SAT.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

That's usually true, but it goes beyond luxuries and time (though you need nutrients to think) and is more psychological.

You must not know many teachers...

Shots fired at spanky!

SAD!

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The SAT is part genetics, too. But I'd bet on that kid, too. Some might claim that this would produce a "why bother?" attitude towards public education, but that point doesn't logically follow.

That then gets us down the rabbit hole of if 17 year olds have the same religious freedom as adults. I think it's hard to make a case that the best interest of the child is what a church tells them over what they and medical doctors chosen by the parents think is best.

There are religions that don't believe in blood transfusions. They are technically supposed to let their children die rather than get one. Now, I find it hard to believe you would let a life saving surgery not have "consent" because of it even if the 17 year old wanted it.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Very true. Every day I learn what a hand job you are.

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Elections have consequences.

It's not one or the other though. I'm proving the same home life regardless. I'll trust that from 9:30 to 1pm(or whatever minuscule hours teachers actually work) that the teachers are doing a better job as trained professionals than I would be.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Boilermaker -

You keep wrongly bringing up religion. The debate here has nothing to do with religion. The debate is whether parents have a right to make decisions for their children or the government does. That they may or may not have done it for religious reasons isn't material.

You are nuts to paint teachers as having some unique skill set that a reasonably educated parent couldn't replicate. That's not a shot at teachers; it's true of most professions. The biggest downside to home schooling is the lack of socialization....... which is a huge downside.

I know you're a big government guy, which is fine, but where do you draw the line?

Some ideas people have regarding the government and children are certainly interesting.

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Elections have consequences.

You don't think all these sw side bimbos that graduated from Eastern aren't world class intellectuals?

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Parents shouldn't have an absolute right to do what they think is best for their children.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Below the waist? (or above?)?

Nobody is arguing they should. But hormone replacement therapy isn't a polio vaccine.

They aren't trying to remove her clitoris .. They just want her to wait 6 months before their mentally ill daughter makes extreme choices.

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It is about religion. They made it about that.

I'm not a big government guy. However we already draw lines about what decisions parents can make for kids. I'm guessing you and others would want the government to step in if a parent was getting their 10 year old a gender reassignment surgery.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Rick..I'd bet it's already happened.. The surgeons should be locked up with the parents.

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That's one word to describe it.

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If you read the thread you'll notice I completely disagree with the judge.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Why should the government step in?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Any doctor who would participate in custody proceedings over hormone replacement therapy to be performed on a minor should be sued for malpractice then lose their license.