It is though. The decisions must be final. It's just like if you are sentenced to prison you don't get to choose to fly to Italy.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

When did they ban guns?

What? That’s the worst analogy in the history of the board.

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1996

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What don't you understand?

That literally is what is happening. The courts determined this was the final answer for the healthcare of this child. No one can overrule it. It is final. It's the exact same thing as if a judge orders you to prison here.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

How will anyone be able to revolt after a sixteen year old has seized all the guns?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

^This guy gets it

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

And everyone is saying what they’re doing is wrong.

You can make decent arguments against socialized health care without saying that it must be structured in such a way so that the government wouldn’t even allow someone to seek out their own medical care elsewhere. That’s not a necessary requirement for the financing of health care.

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Yep. The government official or judge using the phrase "You should not have further treatment, you should just die now with dignity and comfort" is what gets most older Americans in a complete rage about single-payer or universal health care. They would rather pick the insurance company where a spineless middle manager says it instead.

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"When people want their version of the truth, they go find it, no matter how baseless their beliefs." -- Ken Rosenthal

I never said it must be structured that way as this seems to be an extreme example but this is a fairly common occurrence when you hand over complete control over to the government for healthcare. This seems a strange fight for you given how fearful you seem to be of the government in "other" discussions.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

from what i've read its not necessarily the state but that this child has rights and the best people to determine the rights of this child are the doctors at a private hospital and not the parents. the hospital is protecting this child right from inhumane treatment...by letting it die...humanely?...starving/suffocating it?


does anyone in their right mind think that if a child of the royal family had this same illness, this would be the same outcome?

I think the Berlin Wall analogy is a good one. Man has yet to figure out how to effect socialism except at the point of a gun. It may be impossible otherwise.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Then we are in agreement. Health care is the one issue where I believe government involvement, at least to some degree, is necessary. And, of course, it's the one issue where you don't.

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one of the arcitects said (i'm paraphrasing) "we had to find a way to keep people here so that they could see the long term effects of socialism!!"

It very well might.

I used to laugh at my Polish in-laws for fearing Socialism so much, but I was ignorant. They have every reason to think that way.

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I will say this, socialism is an excellent weight loss device. Just ask Venezuelans. It has succeeded where other diets have failed

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

Government has a role, just like it has a role in the other things I have talked about. Outside of the obvious things like police/fire, roads, parks, and other things I don't want the government having complete control of anything. The government you fear so much though is ok to completely control your healthcare though.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm not sure one way or the other. I firmly believe that in a country as wealthy as ours, citizens should all have access to health care (not a "right"). Achieving that is a much more complex thing, and I don't have an answer.

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I think that no matter what you do, the richest guy is always going to get the best whatever, whether it's schools, healthcare, etc. Canadians love to boast about their "free" healthcare and then they come to the U.S. for procedures. Of course a humane society shouldn't let its poor die on the streets, but as far as I know that wasn't happening in the U.S. prior to Obamacare. Basically, universal healthcare seems to be more about an insurance policy against medical expenses bankrupting a person/family rather than about the actual availability/quality of the medical care.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

There are really two solutions that could work.

1) A public option that isn't subsidized by taxes outside of the poor(replacing Medicaid). Let the government "beat" the insurance companies with their cheaper rates by not taking a profit out of it. The problem is, that in general, the private sector is more efficient and would likely beat them even while taking profit just like other industries.
2) Catastrophic coverage for all that most people won't ever use for the massive insurance bills and let everything else get figured out with little to no government outside of the poor(Medicaid stays). This basically means that you don't have to worry about the medical bills that will bankrupt you, and the insurance companies can price it accordingly knowing that you won't be paying $3 million in lifetime benefits to someone who has a decade long disease. However, you could have the same "death panels" issue we see here with that too.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I was thinking about this the other day when Caller Bob posted that heartless Farquhar thread. Some rolled their eyes. Some laughed. Whatever. I'm not offended. But it struck me that the only thing that prevented Bob from a figurative beating by a righteous CFMB mob is the fact that we don't really know or care about Danny Farquhar.

I had just read a summary of Jonah Goldberg's The Suicide of the West. He makes the point that we are all happy socialists on a micro level. For example, in leash's family or Nas's family it's to each according to his/her needs, from each according to his/her abilities. Nas and leash don't expect their babies to chip in to help the family. And it's that way in pretty much every family. We're all naturally socialists. But there comes a point where that can't be extended. It works in your family. It may work among a group of friends. Maybe it could even work in a village or a town. But once we get beyond that, it's "Fuck Danny Farquhar."

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Humans are inherently selfish.

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More than this their most talented nurses and doctors line up to come work in the USA. The pay is often 3 or 4 times better and they dont have to deal with the bureaucracy. I saw a Quebecoise nurse for about a month, she was from Montreal and through some weird Commonwealth arrangement got the "opportunity" to work in a few different NHS hospitals over the course of 18 months. She made it 9 before quitting and just using her UK residency to travel around the continent. When I was with her in Bordeaux she was almost out of money and getting ready to go back to North America and she was absolutely 100% intent on moving to the USA and working there.

So compounding this issue is the talent disparity in people practicing medicine in other countries vs. the USA is massive.

I go on about how fucked the NHS is. They actually have color coded scrubs depending on how long someone has worked for the NHS or what qualifications they have. Of course, the patients pick up on this scheme pretty quickly and often just refuse treatment from anyone they deem unqualified simply by the color of these scrubs.

Survival, Peeps, survival. We would both step over a starving Caller Bob to grab a crust of bread if it came down to that. The only thing that makes socialism tenable is prosperity. The Catch 22 being that prosperity may not be possible under socialism.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The only thing that makes any progressive social ideas possible is also prosperity. But at the end of the day, economics always wins out.

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I saw a guy tweet that his mother is a medical professional in some particular specialty in Canada. There are three doctors practicing said specialty in the entire country of Canada. There are five practicing it in South Dakota alone.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Tall Midget is shedding a tear in this thread seeing JORR and leash have jumped off the Bernie bandwagon.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

In Sioux Falls alone, we have 2 Level 1 trauma centers (Sanford and Avera). Both are well staffed with top notch medical professionals. When I first had my ulcerative colitis flare-ups, I was able to get a CT scan that night when I went into the ER. I was then scheduled for a colonoscopy to occur 2 days after that. (they couldn't do it the next day as I would've still had to undergo the day of prep before they can do it). That type of care is not available in single payer systems. In Canada, I'd probably wait a month for that CT scan and even longer for the colonoscopy.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

I don't think you understand why we supported Bernie although leash has explained it to you countless times. It's not because we are in favor of free puppies for everyone.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Thank god Bernie lost.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul