Post your arguments here.

Leash and vegan keep saying LeBron is GOAT while refusing to acknowledge they are saying LeBron is GOAT. IMU at least has a pair of nuts on him and says LeBron is goat and says it will soon be laughed at to think MJ could have been better. Strong take.

As far as I know the rest of us aren’t basketball idiots so we realize LeBron is great but nowhere near MJ.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Let's see if this is true:

LeBron has performed better in the playoffs player versus player

Nope. MJ still outranks him by stat and eye test.

he has won a championship with a team far inferior to Jordan's Bulls teams. H
Nope again. Kyrie, Love, Wade, and Bosh were all great. Let's also remember Kyrie and Ray Allen hit the most clutch game winning shots of any game in LeBron's career

He is likely to win more championships.
He will not, unless he jumps on already established team like GS or Houston.

He is bigger, stronger, faster and plays a more complete game.
Good for him. Jordan was better at basketball, which is what we are talking about.

Jordan scored an infinitesimal amount more
LeBron Points Per 100 possessions: 36.7
Jordan: 40.4

PLAYOFFS

LeBron Points Per 100 possessions: 36.9
Jordan: 43.3

in an era when scoring in the NBA was at an all-time high.
Might wanna double check that, amigo

So when normalized to today's PPG, LeBron might even outscore Jordan as well.
Based on what I just posted the opposite appears true



Your turn, LeBron fans

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

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The Bulls went to the ECF without Jordan in his baseball retirement. This Cavs team wins about 25 games without LeBron, he's going to carry them to the Finals. To me there is no debate, LeBron is better.

You just sound ridiculous when you say things like "nowhere near." You're basing it off completely cherry-picked stats like "scoring per 100 possessions." Well, no shit... Jordan took way more shots. Give us the stats on efficiency.

LeBron has dragged teams to the Finals with different casts of characters. It seems like you invent a different reason to not acknowledge this every year.

And I won't say he's better at this point. But I will continue to laugh at people who say there's no comparison or that Jordan was "clearly more dominant." All you have to do is watch LeBron play to see that no one in NBA history is "clearly better."

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Lebron is the best player post-Jordan. His killer instinct isn't as great as Kobe's, but Lebron's overall game and not being as selfish has pushed him easily ahead of Kobe. Lebron is the best raw physically talented I have ever seen, probably second only to Wilt in the history of the NBA. He is a perfect combination of Magic and Karl Malone.

With all that being said, MJ is still better. He took shit teams his first 2 years to the playoffs, putting up 63 in a game against what many argue is the greatest team since Russell's Celtics in a season which he was coming back from a broken foot. In Jordan's Chicago years, he only had 4 seasons where he didn't play 82 games (85-86: 18, 88-89: 81, 91-92: 80, 92-93: 78); Lebron has only played 82 games once and only had 3 80 games played seasons. With Pippen missing 38 games in 97-98, a 35 year old Jordan led the worst championship Bulls team to a 26-12 record. I still remember Jordan never failing to complete a Finals game (2014 Lebron with cramps) and even put on a performance to remember with his flu game in '97 against Utah. Playoff free-throw percentage, good test of pressure, MJ-82.8%, LBJ-74.2%.

Last point is switching both players, putting them in the other's eras. Lebron, with his constant looking for foul calls and flopping, would get eaten alive by Detroit. MJ without the hinderance of hand-checking and an emphasis on 3-point shooting, would easily dominate and average 35+ ppg today. MJ is the more mentally tough player, which IMO wins out over physical talent.

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Lebron has closed the gap but what makes it difficult in terms of assessment is the level of competition that he is currently competing against. He isn't nor has ever had to dominate an all time great player and the closest that he came to it was last year during the finals and arguably he was outplayed by Durant.

The guy he happens to be "dominating" is a rookie drafted late first round. How hard is that?
When Jordan was good he had to matchup with guys like

1. Drexler
2. Dumars
3. Miller
4. Harper
5. Richmond

This was just at his position. It was easier to gauge his greatness because he had to outplay other great players. Lebron doesn't have to do that. Who was he matched up against in the first series? Can anyone remember?

The level of separation that he is establishing is relative to the guys he happens to be playing against. That has to be factored into the discussion.

You want to talk teammates? look at those shitty ass Bulls teams pre Pippen.

Guys like Sam Vincent, Gene Banks, Dave Corzine. All in the starting lineup.

Lebron is playing with an All Star in Love and also plays on a team with the highest payroll in the league. Before the season started a number of pundits lauded the Cavs for having a first and second unit that was capable of making the playoffs. Now the supporting cast isn't shit because they just have to protect and further enrich the legacy of Lebron.

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Is Russell Westbrook better than Jordan?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Jordan is more accomplished. LBJ is more talented.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

NBA games aren't WWE steel cage matches. The point is to win the game, not choke slam the opposing team's best player.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Look at those rebounds!

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Basketball is not about 1 on 1 matchups like yoh make it. They often don't guard each other, and even if they do it's a team effort - especially today.

That said, even if we went by your very flawed method, you're cherry-picking the matchups. He rarely played Richmond or Drexler, and Reggie Miller was a terrible defender. Joe Dumars was there on teams that beat Jordan with the exception of one.

A more approriate list in the playoffs would be Craig Ehlo, John Starks, Nick Anderson, and Bryon Russell. In perhaps his greatest Finals appearance, his matchup was a broken down Dan Majerle.

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I'm glad you found a dumb meme to beat into the ground on this topic too.

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So it's fair to compare all of the top players Jordan faced in his career to who Lebron just happened to play in the first round? As a reminder, guys like Dana Barros and John Starks were also all-star players in the east during Jordan's reign.

What about the teammates Lebron took to the final in 2007? I think that was a bit further than Jordan ever made it pre-Pippen BTW.

I still favor Jordan overall, but I agree with leash that are some really bad arguments frequently made in his favor in these discussions.

Yup. I'm not even arguing Lebron is better, but the gap Chicagoans try to portray and the arguments used are almost always ridiculous.

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Word

Gotta feeling LTG would say Godfather isn't one of the best movies ever because Michael failed to engage Barzini in a fist fight at the end of the film to determine which family would prevail.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Where did this come from? I'd say that even if LBJ averaged four boards per game. Some of LBJ's superiority over Jordan as a NBA talent are due to his physical traits. Jordan has superior drive and confidence.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

MJ is better at everything, including being bald.

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Sex isn't dirty, sex isn't a crime. It's a loving act between two or more consenting adults.

-Hank Kingsley

No they didn't.

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I assume talent primarily has to do with his ability in things that are secondary for a guard. What do you mean more talent?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'll have to go with Bobby Weiss as GOAT.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

Bobby Weiss is as crazy as saying anybody compares to MJ.

Lebron is just Oscar Robertson for a new generation.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

It's just a generational thing.

Guys like JORR still think Wilt is the GOAT.

Guys like me still think Jordan is the GOAT.

Guys like leash and vegan think Lebron is the GOAT.

Our kids will have a new GOAT and we'll tell them they're nuts.

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I think MJ is the current GOAT. You and I are about the same age, I think.

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DON'T RUIN MY NARRATIVE!

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There is a lot of pretzel logic with LeBron too. He went 2/4 on titles with clearly the best team in the league in Miami. Then it's understandable that he is 1/3 and probably 1/4 in Cleveland because there was a better team that beat them twice. He chose both situations and has been the de facto GM in both places.

Then he takes a team that isn't that good and does well in a conference semifinal and the GOAT talk begins.

When judging their whole careers with LeBron having the major advantage of picking his own teams he just doesn't match up. Too many failures. Too many excuses.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

and the real GOAT is Kareem

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

Titles are not the only measure of success, even though people try to make it that way.

Jordan never faced a team nearly as good as the Warriors. He also had very good talent around him... Actually, great talent for the second three-peat.

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That's fair. So what happened in Miami?

It's also fair to question how the GOAT wasn't on the best team of his generation. Even the team without Durant was slightly better.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Lebron's generation spans back to 2002 so there have been many candidates for that title. And Lebron did beat them once. In fact, he came back from 3-1 to beat them. That might have been the most impressive basketball performance I've seen. It's comparable to Jordan's run in 93 against the Suns.

As of today, GS has two titles. If Lebron could somehow pull off a miracle this year, that would tie them up (since LBJ returned to Cleveland) and he has nowhere near the depth or talent of GS.

Larry Bird and Magic Johnson might not have had the best team of their generation either because both teams were great rivals. That doesn't take anything away from either of them.

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