Weren't you in agreement that a team like the Jazz and the other Finals opponents weren't great?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I said they weren't as good as the Warriors.

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Of course Kobe tried to copy MJ's style but he could never do the athletic things that 80s MJ could and he was never as good as the 90s one.

I think it's just about media narrative as much as anything else. Hell we're still seeing mentions of Kobe's "killer instinct" when his actual clutch statistics are so middle of the road that the argument now turns on just his mere willingness to take (mostly bad) shots in crunch time rather than actually make them.

"Jordan could have had elite PG skills" isn't an argument - he didn't. That's not a knock on him - it just means, again, that him and LBJ were very different players. What separates LBJ in this regard is that his skillset cut across different positions. It's not enough to say "Jordan could have done that, too." The fact is he didn't. And admitting that doesn't take anything away from Jordan; he obviously did just fine doing things the way he did.



I don't know why you're dismissing the "do more" argument. It matters. Sure, other can also do more than Jordan, but none have put it together the way LBJ has in terms of translating that talent into winning on a consistent basis. I'll say this though: head to head in their primes on equally talented teams, I think Jordan's team is going to win. This is the dominance aspect of Jordan that LBJ hasn't quite equaled yet. To me, and I know Zeph is going to go ballistic, the only perimeter player so far that has come close to that type of dominance is Kobe.

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2013 CSFMB ROY

Why does it matter if you yourself are acknowledging Jordan was still more dominant? That’s what rick was getting at too. It doesn’t matter how you win and dominate as long as you do.

And guys like Magic and Bird are guys who had terrific all around games that won as consistently as LeBron or more. It’s just false to say no one else has done it.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

What incorrect statements? PPG was at all all time high in the 80s and early 90s.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/le ... stats.html

And Lebron's traditional and advanced playoff stats are better. Period. More assists and rebounds. More efficient scoring in a less scoring friendly environment. Etc.

And Jordan's teams were more stacked.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Your own link disproves you. No 90’s season averaged a higher ppg than this season and 90-91 is the only one higher than last season.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
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Did Lebron play his entire career this season? Average the team PPG during Lebron 's career and then do the same for MJ's.

If you cannot understand the basic statistics provided in that link, take a back seat and let someone more capable argue on your behalf. Fool.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I don't know. I just saw that you wrote it.

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Don’t be mad because I immediately debunked you using your own link.

Also, that’s why things like per 100 possessions were created and are now used primarily by those that write about the league. No matter which way you slice MJ was a more dominant scorer. Not really debatable.

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Fare you well, fare you well
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Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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LBJ could probably score at the same clip and be more efficient.

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Because my only argument here is LBJ, despite being slightly less dominant, is still more talented overall than MJ.

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Probably not. We haven’t even talked about how much harder it was to drive back then. It’s a lot tougher to play great defense today with the rule changes.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Let’s say he couldn’t.

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Elections have consequences.

No shit. Could you imagine Lebron with the ability to hand check?

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Saying you debunked something is different than actually debunking it.

MJ took a lot of shots. He does not score as efficiently as Lebron scores.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Lebron James shot 35% in the series against the Warriors.

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Jordan ran the point for an extended pd of time and avg a triple double while doing it. Again its difficult to have this sort of discussion if you are unaware of the totality of his career. You continue to leave out a significant portion of his career. It coincidentally is the most dominant portion of his career.

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What series? I'm not sure where you got this stat because it definitely wasn't 2016 or 2017, and in 2015 he shot 40%.

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I misremembered but it was still lower than the 41% that Speeps requested. I didn't really feel like looking it up.

I'm going to get back with you on the Drexler glamour position stuff too. You were flat wrong about it.

IMO caveat must be stipulated of course.

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You didnt have to be alive in 1988 or whatever it was to know Jordan averaged close to a triple double playing PG. It was impressive. LBJ is still better at that kind of game. Have you decided to concede the "SG was the glamour position of the 80s and 90s" argument yet?

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No because you don't know what you are talking about. The time frame that I first provided was late 80's early 90's. You keep trying to say 90's and that wasn't my point. In the late 80's early 90's the 2 guard position was the glamour position. There wasn't a center rated in the top 5 anywhere. Look it up. If you are so sure that I'm wrong then tell me the centers from 88 to 92 who were in the top 5?


You first stated that Jordan didn't have elite point guard or point guard skills now you are saying that Lebron is better at it. Which one is it?

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Pippen was the only all-star MJ every played with.

MJ twice won a championship as the teams only all-star. (1990-91, 1997-98).

I still view him as the ultimate competitor. In a room of alphas, he is the alpha.

lebron is pretty close. i dont' know if he'll surpass jordan in my opinion at this point but i could be wrong.

for me it all comes down to the EAST. while jordan played for the bulls the east was at about .505 in winning percentage. the east during the years lebron has been in it is .450. not even a winning record. in the playoffs the bulls faced East teams with winning percentages at .628. lebrons teams? .590.

i think those percentage point speak on the surface that jordan faced on average a 52 win team in the playoffs as opposed to lebron facing 48 win teams. which is kind of a big deal.

basically the east stinks by a bit of a margin when it comes to the level of competition. lebron hits the WEST wall and folds more often than not.

i think both would play the game differently if era's were reversed.

jordan was self made effectively which gave him this tremendous drive. he also lived under no ones shadow. bird and magic and jabar were different types of players and GOAT wasn't really something people talked about. Lebron was trumped as the next person to compete for that title in like jr high. thats a much different path than what jordan had. and he has also had to deal with a media that jordan never had to deal with. thats a lot to overcome and i think he's handled it well.

i have 6 years of jordan playoff games on VHS tapes. some don't work anymore. but i still have them. the last time i watched them was about 7 years ago. wife and kids were out of town i just watched them all. he's not become legendary as time has passed, what he was able to do was just absolutely ridiculous compared to how todays stars (outside of lebron who is just a completely unique specimen). and the level of talent around him short of pippen and rodman on 1 end of hte floor only was kind of embarassing to the role player talent some of lebrons teams have had.

Is that correct? it doesn't seem possible.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

i believe bj was an all star like 1 year. but yeah thats it.

when i watch those playoff games, i feel like those centers and guards he played with really weren't that good compared to other teams around the league.

Based on some quick research, it appears to be correct.

Rodman made in 90 and 92 before the Bulls.

Armstrong and Grant made it in 94 when Jordan didn’t play.

Cartwright made it in 80.

Still, it’s a bit misleading.

He played with numerous all-defensive team members, sixth man (Kukoc), and the most prolific rebounder maybe ever, and a few guys who were before their time when it came to 3-point shooting (Paxton, Hodges, Armstrong, and especially Kerr. And Pippen wasn’t a run-of-the-mill All-Star. In 96, I believe MJ, Pippen, and Rodman were all first-team defense and Harper was 2nd team.

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I was surprised too. Bj and grant made it the one year Jordan retired. I didn’t check his wizard days. But during the Bulls it was only Scottie.

Michael Jordan saved John Paxson's career and possibly Hodges as well. Paxson for sure was on his way out the league before signing with the Bulls. He isn't a guy that should get kudos for anything.

Also Pippen was the only elite player that Jordan has played with.


Lebron James has played with at least 4 in his career.

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The 2010s will go down in history as the era of post playing centers.

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
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Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY