I think there is a lot of rewriting history there. Lebron, Wade, and Bosh were openly joking about winning 7 titles together. They were far and away the most talented team in the league in a league where stars win titles. He didn't just choose to leave Cleveland. He chose to team up with his good friends and give themselves a massive competitive advantage. Don't get me wrong. That was their choice. Durant made the same choice to take the easy way to a few titles if not more. I even get it after living their whole lives hearing how Malone, Miller, Barkley and others never got a title. We just don't have to pretend it is the same thing as Scottie Pippen going from lightly regarded project who didn't even start as a rookie and having Horace Grant and then a Dennis Rodman with a questionable future to the point that he was traded for Will Perdue. I mean, that's basically what Kevin Durant gave up on in OKC to go win some easy titles though Westbrook was probably regarded higher when he was drafted than Pippen was.

But, let's say that it is true, and that all Lebron did was "even" the talent level with the 90s Bulls. He still went 2/4 with them. He then chose his next destination, dictated all the moves, got another All Star there along with an up and coming star in Irving. 1/3. Probably 1/4.

A pattern starts to develop. Lebron even while giving himself the best possible chance of winning, and being at worst the second best player of all time, is 3/7 under that circumstance in winning a title.

I don't get your point then, if the talent around Jordan and LBJ is roughly equal. Then if we are comparing who the better player is, you are saying Jordan is the better player as he took an equal collection of talent and pushed them to a 6-0 record in the finals.

I've never bashed either of those for not winning a championship. I've bashed both of those players for making their teams lose.

Not only does Carmelo not win, but he contributes to losses. He is a reason the Thunder were so disappointing.

Cousins has improved his overall game a lot in the past two seasons or so. I haven't ripped him much, or at all, in awhile.

Unlike you, I recognize when players progress or regress.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

is this thread more hot air about how Jordan wasn't that good and Pippen sucked and Phil Jackson couldn't coach....yet somehow the team essentially won six titles in a row?

You need to watch games and stop with talk show narratives.

If Carmelo Anthony is such the loser then why did Denver improve by 26 games with him as its best player during his rookie season?

If he causes teams to lose then why did his teams make the playoffs for the first 9 years of his career?

Why has he had a winning record despite playing in the Western Conf. for the first 9 years of his career?

We've previously discussed all of these points at great length only a couple of years ago. You tried to push the story line that he was the only player on those teams. That was countered by listing the countless All-Star players Denver started surrounding him with. Denver also tanked the hell out of the 2002-2003 season, as many teams did, to try to land LeBron.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

When have you named all of these countless All Stars? you are flat lying and if you have then you should have no problem doing it now. WHo are they?

I also knew that you'd duck the questions and your tank theory if pure speculation. Denver had been a garbage ass franchise well before 02-03.

Lastly to illustrate the inconsistency in your argument you just love some Top 10 Jimmy Butler. Where in the hell have Jimmy Butler led teams gone in the 4-5 years that he has been an elite (in your opinion anyway) player?

Carmelo Anthony in 2003-04 was 7th on the team in WS/48, 4th in overall WS, 7th in BPM (0.1), and 4th in VORP. Andre Miller, Marcus Camby and Nene were all higher contributors.

Iverson, Billups, KDdidit Martin were the All Stars. Guys like Camby, Nene and Miller were big contributors that never made the All Star team.

Timberwolves had 16 more wins than the previous season, and the Bulls had 14 fewer wins. Using your own logic, Jimmy Butler is worth approximately 15 wins.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

My question wasn't about more wins it was about "playoff success" . Where has top 10 Jimmy Butler ever led anyone? Simple question.

Regardless of your little haha, Rick's post was incredibly well thought out. Strong argument.

My personal opinion: I used to be a Jordan is greatest ever guy hands down no argument. But I am watching the current playoffs and just seeing LeBron do incredible things and at an age and with longevity that is evening this argument. And it will always be hard to account for the years Michael missed where he could have won more championships and added to his aggregate stats. They are damn near even in my mind now. Michael will always be the more competitive player, while LeBron is the most incredible physical specimen to have ever played the game.

I have never been a guy to define players' greatness by number of championships. I think it is a factor to be considered, but I always had Dan Marino ranked higher than most in the top QB category as an example.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

Denver won 27 games in the 01-02 season and 17 in 02-03. That look like a tank job to you?

But I am watching the current playoffs and just seeing LeBron do incredible things and at an age and with longevity that is evening this argument. And it will always be hard to account for the years Michael missed where he could have won more championships and added to his aggregate stats.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/2 ... ba_history

Carmelo is now 25-47 in the postseason, which is a career 34.7% winning percentage. He has only been out of the first round twice in 11 playoff appearances.

Butler is 15-25 in the postseason, which is a career 37.5% winning percentage. He has already been out of the first round twice in only 5 postseason appearances. In 2018-19, he will be playing on the best team he has ever played on and I expect a 3-5 seed season and multiple playoff rounds.

Apparently you care about playoff success even less than I.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

Yes, it does. Cleveland and Denver tanking in the 2002-03 season was well documented. Maybe that was before you started following Carmelo... err, the NBA.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

Lebron James is 33. Michael Jordan won his last title at 34.

We've got to wait a few years to give Lebron the longevity edge.

Tanking from what? they were already a terrible franchise. You may need to look up the definition of tanking and Well documented as a source isn't going to cut it.

This Nuggets blog details the two years of tanking Denver did in the 2001-02 and 2002-03 seasons.

The Nuggets lost their last 8 games of the season by playing randoms for 30-35 minutes per game. Do you remember the illustrious careers of Vincent Yarbrough, Nikoloz Tskitishvili and Jeff Trepagnier? They had one of the ultimate tank jobs in NBA history.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

Lebron James is 33. Michael Jordan won his last title at 34.

We've got to wait a few years to give Lebron the longevity edge.

It's also interesting that even if you include the Wizards years, Lebron has already played in about 70 more regular season games than Jordan, and yet people say that Lebron seems poised to pass Jordan eventually. Shouldn't it pretty much be decided given that?

The last few years with the Knicks and this year with OKC Melo just been collecting checks.When OKC got Melo and Playoff P you declared them the best team in the West.....then you saw them play

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

You are talking about a guy in his 15 season that has come off of 2 major knee surgeries the previous two years and you're expecting him to be the Hall of Fame guy that he has always been. Is it a problem with him or you?

Also I never stated that they'd be the best team in the West. I stated that they'd be 2nd best. You are flatout lying about that.

In addition he was the 3rd option on a team where the first option took a combined 80+ shots over their teams last 2 games of the season. Again given the parameter I just provided is it a problem with him or you?