Nobody said that. What leash said- and vegan and I agreed- is that people outside Chicago don't consider someone who disagrees that Jordan is GOAT to be a person suffering from mental retardation.

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Freedom is our Strength.

No, I'm actually not surprised at all. Just like I'm not surprised that a 35 year old thinks Jordan is the best ever. And I give his opinion the same weight as I give the 35 year old's who wasn't alive to see Cousy play.

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Freedom is our Strength.

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Sure they do.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Jordan developed with, and helped develop the talent that he won with. Unlike James. But lets continue to argue that one of the things that makes James better than Jordan is that he makes everyone around him better, while simultaneously turning around and discrediting Jordan for this and taking that away from MJ.


Of course you don't care about 'how they got the talent around them' -because you can't use the argument for James. Therefore it needs to be downplayed on Jordans end to strengthen Lebrons end of it. Same goes for the 6 rings and 6 finals MVP's for Jordan, it needs to be downplayed by those arguing for James because James doesn't have that argument to his advantage.


Proof?


Making the finals 8 years in a row but losing more than winning 'so impressive, Jordan never did it'. Going 6 for 6 with 6 MVP's in the finals during a 7-8 year stretch (one and a half of those years without Jordan even in the league).. 'IS THAT THE ONLY ARGUMENT YOU HAVE!!!'



lmao


Like I said, its a constant exercise in moving goal posts and Olympic level mental gymnastics to keep Lebron in the discussion. These same things were done 8 or so years ago for Kobe Vs Jordan too.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Both Jordan and James made winners out of players who had no business winning.




Huh? This might be clearer if you could identify the poster who has put forward the arguments you're trying to rebut. So far this looks like a dialogue you're having with yourself.

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
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Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Not saying you made the argument directly, but it is a common part of the debate that comes up in media and so on. Its just another example of my point, I find it hard to believe you've not seen/heard others bring this up over the past few days or so as this debate has heated up all over again.. and my point being the comment was made that 'Chicago fans' make ridiculous arguments based on some 'mythology' about Jordan and so on when its done all the time as well on the James side and formerly the Kobe side of it too. Far more often on that end from what Ive seen/heard.


I get that it moves the needle to constantly use Jordan Vs Foil of the day, but to act like ridiculousness isn't going on for the other side of the debate is hilarious. And that's what my quote at Leash was meant to point out.


If people think James is better based off his style of play or whatever than that is what it is. Its when you start to get into the nuts and bolts of arguments on both sides where you wind up with a lot of the BS.


On Jordans end (for example), I hate when people lean on the 6 rings and nothing else. Its stupid to let your argument for Jordan stand on that alone.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

I don't have a problem with this. But I also think if we're being reasonable in a discussion on judging the performance of a player it does help to have also seen them in action.


I never saw Wilt or Bill Russell play the game. As a kid in the early 80's I grew up thinking Wilt Chamberlin was the GOAT because he once scored 100 points in a game lol. Then Jordan came along and I got into actually watching the league. But to be fair, I have never seen (outside of some clips or replayed games) a lot of the old timers actually play.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

I think you definitely see more ridiculousness from many Jordan guys. Guys speak of him as if he faced the greatest competition ever during his time, as if every game in the regular season was a war onto itself, as if the guys guarding him were armed with machetes. They also completely ignore how Jordan only started winning once Pippen started figuring things out.

I don't know what James ridiculousness you might be talking about. I'm certain there's a lot of crap on TV and at Deadspin, but over here I don't think anyone has said anything particularly unreasonable. The most I've seen is guys saying LBJ is more talented than MJ. Do you find that to be "ridiculous"?

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Come on,NME. The anti-Lebron crowd is way more ridiculous. If the argument is that someone just thinks Jordan was the best, fine. But that's not good enough. They have to resort to absurd criticisms of Lebron and mythical deification of Jordan.

Just in the last few days, we have had people actually make the argument that Jordan is better because he never flopped and that he is better because if Jordan were on the team, somehow JR Smith would have magically known the score. That's right - people are actually claiming that Jordan was telepathic and would have "willed" JR Smith to pay attention. And that somehow Lebron is worse because he isn't telepathic.

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Sorry Vegan, but I have to come back to this for a second..



True. But LBJ got his 1st 2 rings of his 3 total so far by going to a future HoF player still in his prime who was already a winner in Wade. And recruiting another already developed All Star in Bosh. James didn't develop those guys or really help develop them -they were what they were before James. Jordan helped build it from the ground up and was there for coaching changes and other good players he played with getting traded off for draft picks that there was no guarantee of success for. He stayed the course and helped build it up.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I don't agree Leash. I see bad arguments on both ends, but more from the James side right now. Some of it could be trolling I guess (I post more on a different sports message board than this one too so I'm not singling out posters here, per se).


Some of the media is getting way out of pocket with this also. Parkins and Mac from the other day, for example. Granted I'm not too familiar with their show and apparently Parkins is a big LBJ guy but I don't know.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

I'm combining what I'm seeing here with what I'm seeing/hearing elsewhere too.


Who here is claiming Jordan never had Pippen while winning rings, or that Pippen wasn't a big part of it? Because I'm not seeing that at all.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

The trades Jordan experienced actually helped the team win rings so I'm not sure where you're going with that. He actually hated the Oakley trade but that led to Cartwright anchoring the starting center spot for the first three-peat. Also, based on what we know of Jordan from his time in DC and in Charlotte, maybe it's a good thing nobody listened to Jordan back then when it came to trades.

Sorry, but implying that Jordan "developed" the guys around him is approaching the absurd positions LYK outlined above. Jordan was a player, not a player-coach. I wouldn't say LBJ "developed" anyone around him either. I just mean players who would never win anything on most other teams ended up winning when they were paired with either Jordan or LBJ.

As for your last point, I don't see the relevance of, basically, sticking with the same team through thick and thin when it comes to a comparison between players. Who cares? Are you and others trying to give credit to Jordan for being a loyal employee? I don't see how any of that matters.

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

There is a strong undercurrent in many pro-Jordan posts here that basically says Jordan would have won rings regardless of who was on the team.

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

You straight up don't see the difference between Jordan winning with a 1st time All Star in Pippen for that 1st ring Vs a player that's supposed to be the best in the league going to an already established group of players in Bosh and Wade -Wade already an established alpha with a ring and a Finals MVP?


And you also don't see how playing against Jordan in practice everyday -and also outside of practices to fine tune certain aspects of their game- can help develop a player?


But my comments are ridiculous somehow?


And no, my last point isn't to somehow give brownie points for loyalty (this is the kind of snide ridiculous comment I was talking about on the James side of the debate). Its to point out that Jordan stuck with the more difficult path of gutting it out on a young team being built around him when he could have gone elsewhere where this was already done with established players (like James did) and had greater odds of success. Its the more difficult path. Its easy now in hindsight knowing what Scottie became and how many rings they won together and say this isn't a big deal. But when it was happening in real time and the Bulls were losing every year to the Pistons there was no way to know there'd turn around and become as great as they were. Michaels mental toughness/fortitude (the intangible side of the argument) is noted as one of the things that made him as great as he was, and this just 1 example of that. James is criticized at times for lacking in this department and him feeling the need to leave and seek out already established players is an example of that.


Like I said earlier -to me this comes across as wilful ignorance because its not an argument that can be made for James, therefore what Jordan did there needs to be ignored, watered down, or brushed off as 'no big deal' 'I don't get it'. Which is exactly what you're doing here.


I'm not being unreasonable, I am explaining myself pretty clearly here. I'm showing you the fiber of my fabric. I like James, I'm not a 'hater' or any of that crap.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

When LeBron went to the Heat, I remember there being this revelation: LeBron isn't the next Jordan, he was never going to be, what he really is is the next Magic Johnson, for he facilitates rather than finishes and makes everyone around him better. Fast-forward and it's "everyone around LeBron sucks, he has to do everything himself because everyone sucks so much." What changed here? and didn't LeBron put this sucky roster together himself? and doesn't the sucky roster include Kevin Love?

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I obviously don't post as much here as a lot of you guys do but.. I'm not seeing that -outside of Peeps fooling around here and there.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Its hard to know how true this is, but yeah, that's been put out there and speculated about quite a bit. But honestly, without proof of it, I can't hold it against him. I will admit it is hard for me to believe he doesn't weigh in on basketball decisions tho.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Oh and Vegan.. on topic: Yeah Jordans a shit owner, from what I can tell lol

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

There are many ridiculous LeBron arguments. "But rebounds!", "8 straight finals!", "Better teammate!", "What he is doing at this age is remarkable even though Jordan was winning rings still at this age!".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yeah but do you think anyone here is serious with that stuff?

It's all fun.

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I see the "better teammate" or "isn't a raging shithead like Jordan" way more than I should. What, like he's gonna hang out with you after the game?

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He got Thompson and JR Smith huge deals but that was mostly for his high school friend who became their agent.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Absolutely. Not all, but some.

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None of those are even close to "he would have made another guy think what he was supposed to think through sheer will."

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Call it telepathy, call it Phil Jackson, but that never would have happened to the Bulls.

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Vegan claims he isn’t a big part of it. “glorified role player”

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I specifically said the point about Jordan developing players was ridiculous. I think it's ridiculous because that kind of competition in practice happens everywhere - it's not unique to Jordan. Guys on the Spurs have said the same thing about Duncan, guys on the Celtics about KG, and so on. For those reasons I think it's a ridiculous point and reflects the myth-making we see here around Jordan (the myth being going against Jordan in practice magically made everyone better, as if that wouldn't have happened on a different team).

As for your other points, I don't think they're ridiculous. I just think you're conflating joining established players with joining an established team. James did the former and not the latter. Before I get into this, I just want to note that Wade's record after Shaq left was terrible. That team didn't do anything with Wade as the sole star so let's not overstate his credentials. The best team in the East after the Celtics was James' Cavaliers. The Heat were irrelevant.

My opinion on James joining the Heat is that it's not all that dissimilar from KG and Allen being traded to the Celtics to join Pierce, or from Gasol being traded to LA to join Kobe, Odom, Artest, etc. Yes, those were trades and not free agent acquisitions, but I don't think that's a useful distinction. If Cleveland decided to trade James to Miami for picks then no one would have a problem. If Miami drafted Wade and James then no one would have a problem. But James signs with Miami as a free agent and then all of a sudden he's committed some sort of basketball crime.

The only thing I can grant you here is that Jordan did win with a younger Pippen, but he was still a star. That was evident before they won their first ring. And yes they did have to get over Detroit together, which they did. However, that evolution coincided with the rise of Pippen and Grant. To only focus on Jordan in this regard is overstating his role.

The "mental toughness" thing you mentioned is also in my view a myth-making thing. I don't deny that Jordan had a competitive nature but that nature wouldn't have mattered without Pippen, Grant, and PJ. You can have all the "toughness" in the world but you're not winning anything without talent around you. So I completely disagree with your assertion that James didn't have this kind of disposition and that's why he sought to play with other players. He did in fact have it - remember, he went to the finals as a 22 year old. His next best players (Illgauskas and Larry Hughes - think about that) were not talented enough to be on any team's best three. If that doesn't demonstrate toughness then nothing does.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY