Here is my original point. WFR says this is ridiculous. This is a factual statement so how is this ridiculous?

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This is why I say your points are disorganized. Disengage from the government is a very vague statement that could mean almost anything. In this instance it supposedly means end handouts. When I say welfare is not working as intended it means that there was not supposed be a permanent class of people receiving benefits in perpetuity. It was supposed to be uplifting and temporary. Affirmative action is the same thing. It was meant to uplift people not become a necessary crutch.

Corporate handouts have nothing to do with either other than the label of welfare, which is mostly a marketing term. The handouts are usually given in the form of tax breaks for the promise of bringing jobs to the area. The other examples you cited were tax breaks for luxury items. I don't see this asp;'. related to race in anyway or really related to the first argument in anything other than a broad reformation of how our society works. That's really the argument that most people seem to want to have when discussing these things, but they don't actually want to get into that debate (ending capitalism). So they make up some argument about how unfair society is, while pulling in massive fees to do talks at gloried cocktail parties. The last part is a shot at Coates - just to keep things clear.[/quote]


Affirrmative Action is the primary reason for the expansion of the black middle class. Somehow you see that as a crutch yet you fail to acknowledge that whites have also benefitted from said "crutches".


You also fail to acknowledge that whites overwhelmingly benefitted from "said" crutches.

I don't take cues from Coates so i don't know why you constantly reference him.

My essential point is that on some level everyone has been the beneficiaries of handouts.

Its why the lobbying industry is by far the biggest industry in Washington D.C. anyone that thinks that blacks are the only ones seeking to be "crutched" is delusional.

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The bolded is pure speculation, and it does nothing to refute my issues with affirmative action, which are primarily unintended consequences. Do you think it's a healthy message to say you only have to be x percent as good if you are black? Crutch was the reference to that specifically, and now you are misusing it towards corporate handouts.

You keep blending in tax reform to this argument to the benefit of no one.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

It isn't speculative as it is fairly easy to draw a correlation. Believing that it creates "crutches" is what is speculative.


Do you think that it is good to say you are disqualified if you are black? Affirmative Action was created to combat that.


Do you have a problem when unqualified whites like George W. Bush are admited to Harvard? Or Trump to Penn?.

When i have time i will show you how whites have historically benefitted from Affirmative Action or Govt handouts.

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Then draw the correlation and be specific about isolating the specific practice of affirmative action. It certainly has created a crutch look. At incoming test scores to colleges by race. I don't blame the kids. Saying a 3.3 is as good as a 4.0 is going to alter a person's behavior.

Do you thing having lower academic standards for blacks permanently was the original plan?

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

Read the first example from the huffpost which is a hugely biased site. And it hugely talked about Corporation tax breaks not people. That sure as hell is not welfare. THe changes in the tax codes is all about more jobs being created which benefits pretty much everyone. And so what if the top execs make a ton of money. Most of them worked their asses off for those positions, took risks, etc. You want me to think that this is bad. Guess what? Poor people do not create jobs. THe wealthy do. That is also what the main spring to creating a middle class is all about.

THe biggest crock of midrash that the left tries to sell is this notion of socialism being good for society in general. That capitalism is evil. That rich people do not deserve to be rich. That companies should be controlled by the state. No country in the world succeeded in a socialism type economy. Some tried but returned to a modified capitalism when pure socialism failed.

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An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

Some months ago there was a special about a controversy at several Ivy League schools about their discrimination of Asian students with higher academic credentials than all other races. They had 4.0 students with very high SATs being denied entry while much lower scores were accepted.

Personally, I think that some of these institutions go way over-board trying to placate activist minorities at the expense of other races and nationalities. It is unfair. Entrance into any job or academic institution ought to be done fairly and equitably.

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An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

There were specific examples and you constantly overlook them. Just gave 2 and the article provide some such as: Ex Cons more likely to get a call back than college grads. Do you have a problem with that since you obviously didn't have one with Bush or Trump.


How about the studies of the 3 cities where 70% percent of the people surveyed were found to be hired via hookup?.

You seem to have no problems with Whites that "get ahead" because their mother or father was a high school classmate of the CEO. Merit based only seems to matter when it comes to blacks apparently.

Affirmative Action was created in part because highly qualified blacks were often overlooked. Nothing about this current situation suggests that anything has changed either.

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I think you missed part of the story. Legacy admissions had more to do with it than minority enrollment.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

That is merely an opinion.

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I was of course mocking the tendency of IDW/Quillette types to prattle on about how reasonable and non-tribalistic they're being when of course all of that flowery language about reason and logic is window dressing for what's in fact glaringly ideological.

Incidentally I see Sam Harris has Hughes on as a guest today. I'm glad he could he finally have on his second or third black interviewee ever and I'm sure his choice of guest has absolutely nothing to do with Hughes telling him exactly what he wants to hear on racial issues

If it's all about the ideas and not the identity of the speaker, then why have you been in such a rush to share such a poorly reasoned and sourced article in the first place? It seems to me the identity of the author in question played quite a significant role in your signal boosting that claptrap.

As for feeling warm and fuzzy, you guys have had no hesitation whatsoever about casting aspersions on Coates and specifically his readers, so forgive me if you don't like it when that same standard gets applied to the black conservatives you enjoy.
This paragraph says absolutely nothing of value.


I don't think you can disentangle the cultural from the structural, particularly given that the latter form of oppression is still pressingly relevant today, despite your protestations to the contrary.

Do you believe otherwise? Do you think that allowing a person with lower qualifications to get into a school or to get a job than a better qualified person is fair and justified? IF so why?

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An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

If merit was the only way that people were hired for jobs or admitted to college then yes i'd agree but it isn't and has been for centuries.

The reason that Affirmative Action was created was related somewhat to this practice.


For years Conservatives such as yourself have fallaciously argued that it doesn't help blacks.

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I don't think you'll find many people who will disagree that special benefits for individual people is bad. Within the context of poor urban (black) America, my argument would be that welfare hasn't worked, not that it costs more than other government spending.

The reason I don't get the Trump hate is that we MUST try something else, IMO. Regardless of who is at fault, poor black communities have a lack of fathers and ridiculously high crime rates. Of course we all agree that it isn't some genetic factor that led to this... it came about as a result of circumstance. No matter who is responsible, we should fix it. No one wants any group to perpetually suffer. When I drive on the south side of Chicago, which I occasionally have to do, I'm not going to lie and tell you I'm not on edge. I am. It's practically a war zone. But I'm also sad for the individuals who have to grow up in that environment. The welfare state does not appear to be helping. Democratic leadership in Chicago does not appear to be helping. Don't you think it's reasonable to discuss other methods?

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None of this means anything. It completely avoided the question and used more imprecise language. And it based on data that exists in your head like the bolded. Then you fall back into Bush and Trump suck. No thanks. This is pure ignorance.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

I guess I’m out of the loop on this. Please explain what Trump’s plan is to fix it and then we can reasonably discuss the “other methods”.

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“Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.”- JD Vance
“My god, what an !diot.”- JD Vance tweet on Trump
“I’m a ‘Never Trump’ guy”- JD Vance

Sam Harris does not speak to enough black people. This is your argument. You have zero responses to anything and only have shallow responses to anything. Respond to the post in actual reasoned way. You have nothing to say except this is bad cause I say so.

What more do we specifically need to do about remembering or fixing Jim Crow that has not been attempted? And why is this the only piece of our history that we need to correct for?

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

My initial point wasn't specific to Trump, but I did mention him so I'll respond.

Trump's "plan" is to advocate for America first. He has done this by lowering the corporate tax rate, punishing other countries for unfair trade, and reigning in regulations.

He doesn't have a plan that is specific to inner cities, but does it matter? This is my confusion with Trump haters. Every group in America is objectively better off than it was four years ago. Does it matter if the president paid lip service to them to get there? Obama didn't do shit for the working class. Should we be happier with him simply because he said the right things but didn't do anything? Or should we praise the guy who didn't say the right things but is presiding over one of the most prosperous periods in American history (for ALL groups)?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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Nah, it's that he only wants to speak to black people who flatter his priors whilst downplaying any actual issues of structural racism. And that it's rather hypocritical of someone who goes on all the time about having difficult conversations and keeping an open mind to be blatantly seeking out confirmation bias and nothing more.
I said several other substantive things in that post, and neither you nor JORR have come up with any kind of answer about how it's appalling that Coates has white liberal readers but you guys are just being objective and real (and definitely not tribal!) while fawning over the black conservative of the week.

I've likewise posted several actual shortcomings in Hughes' article, most particularly lack of historical understanding about the Civil War, complete misrepresentation of the critics he's attempting to refute, and only the shallowest engagement with any kind of literature on the wealth gap possible. Compare that to your totally non-shallow posts about Coates several pages ago.


This seems like a rather fruitless conversation given your refusal to admit to the existence of strucutral racism in the present at all in the first place. A far more robust welfare state and the kinds of job programs that Coates (and Sanders!) advocate for would definitely be a start, not just as reparations for past crimes but also as an effort to correct ongoing effects of systemic racism. As would not just sighing and shrugging about issues like Flint, the North Carolina voter ID laws, etc.

I suppose since affirmative action exists at top universities though, everything should be seen as hunky dory, and the current condition of blacks in this country are more the result of personal moral failings (plus as noted "scientist" Murray would say, genes) and a disinterest in pulling themselves up by their bootstraps..

I would argue that you are giving way too much credit to Trump when you say that. If we’re talking economics then every group did better in Obama’s last 7 years than they did in the years prior. You are swallowing the propaganda Trump is spewing without a critical eye. The 3 items you listed above are not universally accepted as positive in the long term despite the fact that we are still doing well currently as an economy (note: “still” - we were doing well before Trump despite the loud voices in the room).

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“Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.”- JD Vance
“My god, what an !diot.”- JD Vance tweet on Trump
“I’m a ‘Never Trump’ guy”- JD Vance

Great. Now I have to contemplate structural racism as I go out to dinner this evening. This is fucking awesome. I thought I only had to carry the recently reenactment of Jim Crow but I can also hold onto the structure of the whole thing.

Besides donate all my worldly goods and eat a bullet I’m not really sure what will help.

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Elections have consequences.

Structural racism is a made-up turn. It's a bogeyman that we can never solve for. What do you want to do to correct for Jim Crow that has not been tried. Answer the question and stop with the jargon.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

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Sex isn't dirty, sex isn't a crime. It's a loving act between two or more consenting adults.

-Hank Kingsley

Seems to me you worry a lot about stupid bullshit Mike. Live your life and you'll be fine. I truly don't understand where you are coming from on this.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Made up?

You're really going all in on being the most worthless poster here. Congrats.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Dude if you have been reading this board the last year we are now living in the worst times ever. Nothing is good at all and it is your fault. So I suggest you figure out how to make good.

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Elections have consequences.

Things are better than they ever have been in history, material wise. But yes structural racism a real thing that continues to exist in our country and the available data readily confirms that. But that doesn't mean you should feel white guilt over it and have it ruin your days. It just means acknowledging a simple fact and going on about your day like we all do. Not everyone needs to feel the need to correct all the injustices of the world every day they live.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

White guilt is why you absolve Kenny Williams of blame and place it on Rick Hahn for 2014-2016.

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Running up $12T more in debt to keep the economy "growing" is an economic plan?

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I appreciate the joke attempt but I've been clear on wanting everyone in that organization fired. Fire the fucking ball boy. Clean house.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul