This completely avoided the questions and facts. But that's not new for you, Leash and MANY others.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Slavery provided an incredible base from which American business was nurtured, North and South. There have been multiple white shoe banks that have been embarrassingly shown to have (substantially) grown as a result of the financial interest they had in the slave trade.

Just like in England, and all across Europe.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Yeah there's been a current wave of historians who make the case that slavery was central to the very development of American capitalism, if not essential to the Industrial Revolution as a whole due to the importance of slave cotton. Baptist's The Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism and Beckert and Rockman's collection Slavery's Capitalism: A New History of American Economic Development both do this. Here's an informal interview with Beckert, who explicitly rejects the idea of slavery as a merely regional institution and notes some of the ways Northern industry benefited from it.

Slavery also made it possible for Northern industrialists to suppress the wages of newly arriving immigrants.

The inhumane treatment of slaves in the South greased the skids for industrialists in regards to its treatment of the workers in the North as well.

The concept of the "wage slave" was very real. Industrialist types used slavery as leverage against newly arriving immigrants. There is a lot of literature out on wage slavery and it is also one of the main reasons that abolitionists sought to abolish the system of slavery.

Their thinking was not based so much on equality for blacks as much as it would be an emancipation of sorts for white wage earners. Slavery made it possible for industrialists to oppress immigrants in the North.

Thus in essence this country was built on the backs of slaves. One was wage earning while the other was not.

The presence of the latter was essential in allowing for the cultivation of the former.

I'd be remiss if i didn't add the fact that wages were able to be suppressed because of the large influx of immigrants as well. Larger than normal supply of workers coupled with the problems caused by competing with slave labor created a two tiered slave system which helped spawned the growth of this nation.

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..

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You already know the examples. Redlining, incarceration rate, hiring rates among equally qualified candidates, poverty line rates, etc.

Let me ask you a direct question. Do you believe there some gene inherent in black people that makes them more prone to criminality and less prone to success in a mostly capitalistic environment? If the answer is yes, we have our answer on whether or not you’re racist. If the answer is no than you should stop arguing this because you already admitted defeat.

Choose wisely.

Leash, I accept your apology in advance for being wrong once again on a political/race related topic.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I consider you a friend so I say this as nicely as possible: your post here is embarrassing. Your only goal is to label WfR racist. I'm sure you tried to avoid it, but three sentences in you couldn't help yourself.

But no worries - it certainly isn't just you. Topics like that can't be discussed here without it getting personal. It's funny that Nas comes on and writes a diatribe about how "mistreated" he is. Since I changed my views a bit, I can't even have a conversation without accusations of condescension, insensitivity, and race-baiting. My personality hasn't changed; only my perspective has. Somehow, when I was on the same side as the board "liberals," my "condescension" was just fine. Now that I'm bringing a bit different perspective, it's really offensive.

The usual "victims" here can't help but cry foul at the same time that they dish out insults and attack people's character. Nas wrote a diatribe yesterday about "unnamed" posters all while not refuting a single point they made. He took shots at me and didn't even have the guts to call me out by name. Instead, he just went on some whiny rant full of character assassinations while not refuting a single point I've ever made. But again, that isn't specific to him... it's just a larger issue on this board.

Some of you like to talk about how the election of Trump has revealed people's true colors. I couldn't agree more. It has revealed how close-minded, dogmatic, and petty some people are. There isn't a single conversation about race on this board in the last two years that doesn't end with the racism police yelling "yeah but ur racist derp!" It is impossible to have a conversation, which I suspect is why WfR gets so frustrated. He was labeled a racist and run off the board last year simply because he made a coherent argument that no one could refute. WfR doesn't have a racist bone in his body. He is clearly an academic who doesn't wilt when rubes call him a racist for idiotic reasons. But again, I'm sure this is reflective of society as a whole and not just this board.

Anyway, most of this stuff isn't worth the time. I love this board and am all about honest debate, but that's not what happens here. It's mainly a bunch of like-minded individuals screaming that everyone else is racist and then having the audacity to call others condescending. There are exceptions like RPB or LTG, but they are so rare they're not worth mentioning. The Left here is so dogmatic that they don't even call out a psychopath like Baby McNown and instead tacitly encourage him while talking shit about him behind his back.

For as long as I have posted here; this board has been as much about politics as it has about sports. I've always considered that a good thing. But it is interesting to be in the minority opinion. Had I known this perspective years ago, I would have been ashamed. And I wouldn't have blamed board conservatives for leaving. Why would anyone subject themselves to a bunch of dogmatic cry babies who can't ever refute a single point and just call names? It's just not worth the effort.

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What facts and questions were avoided?

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

The North and South were essentially different countries during this time period hence the Civil War.

These new histories such as what you posted are a reflection of the current times, and what will play in the current university environment. It's essentially saying the economies are interrelated. Ok. I don't think there was an ethically sourced cotton movement at the time. And cotton, which was the main cash crop at the time figured into a fraction of the Northern economy. At the same time, what's the point of this? To assign guilt to a wider group of people more than a century after the fact?

Do we all need to feel guilty and owe money to the people who sewed our clothes and constructed our electronics at slave like wages?

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

Slavery had very little to do with the wages down in the North. It had far more to do with a steady supply of cheap labor with few other alternatives.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

Redlining is the past. Incarceration rate has several other factors than race that need to be accounted for. Hiring rates among qualified candidates? Again that's something that has a ton of factors involved, and I do not think there has been a proper study. I don't believe for a second well qualified blacks are being passed over. Why do you?
Poverty rates? There are a ton of other factors involved in that including levels of education.

Why do you want it to be racism as the answer to all of these problems? Doesn't that seem too simply and frankly dangerous? It's saying don't bother to try because the system is out to get you. To me that's nihilism.

Asians are out competing the white majority by excelling in academic pursuits. I bet if blacks had a similar scholastic performance they would be having similar academic outcomes. If you want to tell me that blacks can't do that because of racism, then I ask what laws do you want to change to fix that?

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

To say that there was cheap labor isn't really saying much. We know it was cheap.

Also slavery in the South was hardly an "inefficient" system. Cotton was still the leading commodity in the world at the start of the Civil War.

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Your last paragraph hints and some broader questions. I don't think we have to feel guilty but it's at least worth thinking about.

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1. WFR's arguments are littered with a number of inconsistencies. For instance he complains about Affirmative Action for blacks yet completely ignores the Affirmative Action that has been afforded to guys like Trump, Bush, and even McCain over the years.
2. He also never addresses the point regarding handouts for rich white men i.e. subsidization. Instead he chooses to do what you accuse others of doing by using generalized language that is ostensibly designed to deflect from the topic at hand. "ridiculous", and "incoherent" are among the terms that are used to deflect.

3. He cites an article which attempts to draw an equivalency between slavery/Jim Crow and Japanese internment. When called on it he ignores it as he does just about everything that doesn't coincide with whatever point he is attempting to make. He also avoids Zeph's rather salient point regarding reparations for internment victims.

4. He along with you for that matter completely ignored the article that i posted which demonstrated how blacks with college degrees are discriminated against in this country. You instead chose to retreat to rather familiar talking points "they will say you are racist or a bigot if you don't". Don't think anyone has said that so you are being presumptuous in suggesting it.

Lastly since when did Coates become the god of the Civil Rights movement? From reading some of the posts on here it seems that way. He is the only (black) person that anyone ever seems to have read on here.

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I can buy that stuff. Where I was going with my comment was that the United States turning into the world's largest economy happened after slavery was abolished nationally. I'd have to go check the numbers from prior research, but it was something like China had the world's largest economy up until the early 19th century. Then Britain took over. Graph below shows this. In any case, there is no doubt slavery played a role in the early economic development in the U.S. But the real drivers of U.S global economic dominance came after the civil war was over. And in no way am I diminishing the national shame of slavery or the impact it still has on African Americans today.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Leash might be my new favorite poster on this board. Not that I agree with everything he says, but everything he says is well thought out and articulate.

Yes but these are separate arguments Denis. Saying that the U.S. was "built" on the backs of slaves is different than saying it became the "world's largest economy" because of slavery. Admittingly slavery was a huge part of early U.S. economy. If that is the case then it is not a stretch for anyone to suggest that it was built on the backs of slaves.

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1. These are separate issues, and not comparable. It's just a way for you to insert Trump into the conversation. Do you even know he had poor grades? One is legacy the other is by race. I don't think people with lower scores should be given an upper hand. Happy?

2. You are being daft on purpose. Rich white men is a blanket term. I've already said corporate welfare is a bad practice multiple times. Stop with this.

3. I need to defend every line item posted here? It was a small discussion in a much larger issue. It was mean to show that other races face discrimination too. Not to say it was equivalent. Jesus.

4. Your article proved nothing. It was a disaster that showed wealth instead of salaries. It was intentionally misleading.

Coates has been called the most important writer/speaker on race by many people.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

If the large economic growth happened after slavery it's a dishonest statement to say American was "built" on slavery. Modern America, which is what we are discussing was not built on slavery.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

This post is more embarrassing than anything I've posted in quite some time. You didn't respond to anything I wrote and just went on a long winded diatribe about nothing. Take your own advice and learn how to disagree with a post without personally attacking the person making it. Nas had nothing to do with my post.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

How could the "modern" economy be built on slavery if slavery ended over 150 years ago?
World's largest economy occurred as a result of the decline of the great powers of Europe.

It is also disingenuous to keep suggesting that slavery was inefficient. If so how?

Northern economy was larger and more diversified but that doesn't mean that slavery as a system was inefficient. I think it would have died out but that doesn't mean it was inefficient.

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I am not making that claim. People like Coates are. It was in the article.

Why do you want to defend slavery as an efficient practice? It's ancient. And probably not the best way to keep people motivated to do good work. It's also a good way to live in constant fear of the help saying enough.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

1. Is based on ignorance. Trump transferred from Fordham to Wharton and it was reported by a biographer that it was done as a favor by a friend of the family. This was pre politician Trump.

2. Yeah you say that it is a "bad practice" on one hand then attempt to rationalize it by supporting the claim that it is done to create jobs. You also claim that corporate welfare is nothing more than a "marketing term" and means nothing. Ok. So you are against corporate welfare even as you believe that it means nothing?

3. Facing discrimination and facing "Structural racism" are 2 completely different things and for some reason you always seem to ignore that. Detaining Japanese Americans for 1-2 years (in Wartime no less) Isn't anything close to Enslaving blacks for 250 years nor is it anything close to the 100 years experienced during Jim Crow. With this being the case why mention it? It is an insult to people that had to endure either. When you and a few others consistently attempt to equivocate by comparing the experiences of groups like the Irish and the Japanese with blacks you are in essence insulting black people. On MANY levels there simply is no comparison.

4. No i provided another article which strongly supports my assertions.

5. I don't know who these people are and don't care. He is a solid writer but he isn't a leader in the field of sociology or history so i don't know what all of the fuss happens to be about.

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I can't speak for him but if he is trying to be a quasi devil's advocate to better make a culture of discussion then I agree. It doesn't really matter the subject but there is some dynamic of don't dissent.

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Elections have consequences.

See now, I prefer Hawaiiyou

leash v. farvefan is one of my new favorite things around here.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I am merely discounting the claim that it was inefficient. I believe that it would have died out but by 1861 this country had not reached that particular point.

It was difficult for slave labor to compete with the industriaized system in the North at the time but that is quite different than saying it was a failure.

As I pointed out earlier the industrialized system of the Northern states at the time were nothing more than a different form of slavery. Its one of the main reasons used by abolitionists as a reason for wanting to abolish slavery. Conversely it was also one of the rationalizations used by slaveowners for wanting to continue slavery.

Again it isn't all that disingenuous to suggest that this Country was built on the backs of Slavery. The building years weren't the 1900's either. The Constructive years for the country were the late 1700's early 1800's.

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Its been simmering for years. I have seen it and it is ugly.

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Elections have consequences.

That's the impression I get. There's nothing wrong with trying to have a civil discussion about important topics on a forum. I just think we should all know by now that's probably not going to happen on this board.