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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:51 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Inexcusable way to treat one of the best to coach the game, and Quenneville wasn't the one who gave Brandon Manning two years, but it was bound to happen.

So basically Barry Smith will be the real head coach (longtime Bowman spy) and Jeremy Colliton the pretend head coach?


Savard got the same treatment. He doesn't have Q's coaching pedigree, but he is a great guy and Hawks legend. When the time has come, well you do what you have to do to try to save a season and make longer term plans.

Edit: The one D kind of Denis/Dennis I should add!

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Last edited by denisdman on Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:52 am 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
A lot of people saying they fired the wrong guy. I think they just didn't fire enough guys.


This

Agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:53 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Peoria Matt wrote:
He actually sounds confused that people think Bowman should have been fired.



He should probably be fired just for bringing Saad back.

Combine that with the Hammer trade. That one really hurt.

Absolutely awful, backbreaking trade.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:53 am 
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Cashman wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Bowman has made mistakes. The Saad trade and Bickell signings are the biggest. But we don't know how much of that was from the constant battles between Q and Bowman.

I will give Bowman credit for paying Crawford. I thought his salary was too much, but Crawford has been solid and consistent up until his head problems.



The 1st Saad trade, I think Bowmans hands were tied. The 2nd one, we were told and saw we needed to be more physical. The Hawks kinda needed that PF after that cup. No one could of seen MS hitting Bickell, but that Bickell trade to Carolina was a botch by the medical staff and Bowman for giving up TT.

When it came to the Bickell signing, it was Bickell or Bolland. In the end both signings would've been "the wrong answer" as neither did anything post 2013. If they let both walk, they could've instead kept Nick Leddy. I don't think you would see the post-2015 decline if this team had Leddy.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:57 am 
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I meant the trade bringing Saad back. Terrible. I am ok with the Hammer thing. That guy's body was beaten, and he had a high cap value.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:59 am 
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The guy we traded Hjalmarsson for is out indefinitely with a back injury and Hjalmarsson absolutely did not have a high cap hit, he took a sizable discount to stay in Chicago and Bowman moved him anyway for Phoenix fool's gold.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:00 am 
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More so than other sports hockey is cutthroat in the transactions. Coaches and players take moves like these with their heads up and move on. Unfortunately, first the coach must go and then if necessary the GM. This has been played out many many times in NHL history.

We do not have to like it but I hope whatever this young coach (and spy) can play the kids and get something together that looks like what other teams accomplish retooling.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:02 am 
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pittmike wrote:
More so than other sports hockey is cutthroat in the transactions. Coaches and players take moves like these with their heads up and move on. Unfortunately, first the coach must go and then if necessary the GM. This has been played out many many times in NHL history.

We do not have to like it but I hope whatever this young coach (and spy) can play the kids and get something together that looks like what other teams accomplish retooling.

Poetic. But, NBA takes the cake. They fire coaches like every 3 weeks.


Last edited by Kirkwood on Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:02 am 
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Don Granato, who I suspected was a Bowman contingency plan by dint of not having been a Hartford Whaler, is indeed staying on board while Dineen and Samuelsson are gone.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:07 am 
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If you want Stan gone, you probably don't have to wait longer than this next offseason. A lot of people seem to agree Bowman threw Q under the bus to save his own ass, and if Colliton and Smith can't get this team to the playoffs (they won't) Stan could be next. And he should be. The salary cap is a bitch, but it's been one blunder after another since 2015.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:09 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
pittmike wrote:
More so than other sports hockey is cutthroat in the transactions. Coaches and players take moves like these with their heads up and move on. Unfortunately, first the coach must go and then if necessary the GM. This has been played out many many times in NHL history.

We do not have to like it but I hope whatever this young coach (and spy) can play the kids and get something together that looks like what other teams accomplish retooling.

Poetic. But, NBA takes the cake. They fire coaches like every 3 weeks.


Soccer's even worse. The coach who won the English league with Leicester City at 5000-1 odds was fired halfway into the next season.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:11 am 
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Exile on Route 41 wrote:
If you want Stan gone, you probably don't have to wait longer than this next offseason. A lot of people seem to agree Bowman threw Q under the bus to save his own ass, and if Colliton and Smith can't get this team to the playoffs (they won't) Stan could be next. And he should be. The salary cap is a bitch, but it's been one blunder after another since 2015.


And part of it was Q didn't want young players. You can't have HoF players and then fill out the roster with prime year veterans. If you want Toews, Keith, Crawford and Kane, then the rest of the roster is going be a lot of young entry level and second contract guys. And it took a ton of money and years to get Hossa. The cap never went up as expected.

I think Stan's hands were partly tied by the type of roster Q wanted.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:13 am 
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denisdman wrote:
And part of it was Q didn't want young players.


NO

COACH

DOES

Not a single one. If they wanted to coach 19-year-olds, they'd coach the London Knights. Quenneville has given lots of talented young guys chances nonetheless.

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Last edited by Curious Hair on Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:14 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Peoria Matt wrote:
He actually sounds confused that people think Bowman should have been fired.



He should probably be fired just for bringing Saad back.

Combine that with the Hammer trade. That one really hurt.



When you have guys like Kane and Toews, it's obviously a tough decision to move future Hall of Famers/Faces of the Franchise. But to avoid the spot they're in now, the smart thing probably would have been to trade one of those guys (probably Toews) some time after the second Cup. You may not have won the third one, but you'd undoubtedly be in much better shape right now. I can understand why they didn't go that route though.

Also, committing so much money to a goalie is a very un-Bowmanlike thing to do. This is no knock on Crawford. He's an elite goalie. But the (Scottie) Bowman philosophy has always been that an elite goalie isn't the place you want to bury your money in a salary cap situation.


Wait ... trade winning a Stanley Cup to maybe win one later?

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:14 am 
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Don Tiny wrote:
Wait ... trade winning a Stanley Cup to maybe win one later?

JORR posts at HFBoards now.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:15 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
denisdman wrote:
And part of it was Q didn't want young players.


NO

COACH

DOES

Not a single one. If they wanted to coach 19-year-olds, they'd coach the London Knights. Quenneville has given lots of talented young guys chances nonetheless.


Then you get Chris Kunitz. Enjoy.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:17 am 
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Sure no coach "wants" to. In this cap era though most teams have to have a core and young filler.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:17 am 
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No, show me the NHL coaches who are like "hell yeah, give me all the rookies so I can win a Stanley Cup." Jon Cooper, maybe, and even he played Chris Kunitz too much last year! Every coach is biased toward experience, most general managers are biased toward talent.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:18 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Sure no coach "wants" to. In this cap era though most teams have to have a core and young filler.


If you don't play some young guys, then they never develop into productive veterans. There is not enough cap room to have all veterans.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:19 am 
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I think that at the end of the day Rocky Wirtz trusts Scotty Bowman the most. Not Stan, Scotty. As good of a coach as Q has been, Scotty is the legend. Scotty is 85, and when he dies or gets dementia, Rocky will show Stan the door.

As far as the team on the ice, it's time to play the kids, and to spot some of the veterans. Look at how the Cubs managed ancient Ben Zobrist this year. They need to commit to not playing worn down guys like Seabrook on back to backs and 3 in 4s, start putting some of the younger players on special teams, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:19 am 
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Don Tiny wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Peoria Matt wrote:
He actually sounds confused that people think Bowman should have been fired.



He should probably be fired just for bringing Saad back.

Combine that with the Hammer trade. That one really hurt.



When you have guys like Kane and Toews, it's obviously a tough decision to move future Hall of Famers/Faces of the Franchise. But to avoid the spot they're in now, the smart thing probably would have been to trade one of those guys (probably Toews) some time after the second Cup. You may not have won the third one, but you'd undoubtedly be in much better shape right now. I can understand why they didn't go that route though.

Also, committing so much money to a goalie is a very un-Bowmanlike thing to do. This is no knock on Crawford. He's an elite goalie. But the (Scottie) Bowman philosophy has always been that an elite goalie isn't the place you want to bury your money in a salary cap situation.


Wait ... trade winning a Stanley Cup to maybe win one later?


:lol: I get that it's not that easy, but after winning two in three years it's not like this is the Cubs after 108 seasons we're talking about. They're going to be down for a long time now.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:22 am 
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denisdman wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Sure no coach "wants" to. In this cap era though most teams have to have a core and young filler.


If you don't play some young guys, then they never develop into productive veterans. There is not enough cap room to have all veterans.


Right.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:23 am 
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I'm just saying that aversion to rookies is not specifically a Quenneville problem. It's like I've said about "the power play is bad" being a universal lament, "the coach has favorite old guys instead of playing the kids" is another. Look at the stiffs Mike Babcock has put into his lineups in Detroit and Toronto, and he's as respected or more respected than Quenneville.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:27 am 
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The Score's playing the TV audio of Quenneville's no-man-in-the-box boner. I'm hearing this for the first time but Troy Murray was apoplectic as it was happening on the radio side.

Incidentally, I seem to remember this happening to the Florida Panthers a while ago. Maybe even while Dineen was the coach?

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:28 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
I'm just saying that aversion to rookies is not specifically a Quenneville problem. It's like I've said about "the power play is bad" being a universal lament, "the coach has favorite old guys instead of playing the kids" is another. Look at the stiffs Mike Babcock has put into his lineups in Detroit and Toronto, and he's as respected or more respected than Quenneville.


I get all that. But for the Hawks, it impacted front office decisions. So to blame Stan more than Q is ignoring that Q had an impact on guys like Leddy being shipped off.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:28 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
The guy we traded Hjalmarsson for is out indefinitely with a back injury and Hjalmarsson absolutely did not have a high cap hit, he took a sizable discount to stay in Chicago and Bowman moved him anyway for Phoenix fool's gold.


This one really sucked. Hammer was a heart and soul type guy. You can't teach fearlessness.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:29 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
The Score's playing the TV audio of Quenneville's no-man-in-the-box boner. I'm hearing this for the first time but Troy Murray was apoplectic as it was happening on the radio side.


That was interesting. Even though no one was in the box the penalty did expire so why didn't anyone else just go over the boards to join the game?

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:30 am 
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Bernsie going over all the guys that were shipped off because of Q that went to other teams and contributed to Cups.....interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:30 am 
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GoldenJet wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
He had a successful run as Blackhawks coach, imo

He's in the top 5 of all time Blackhawks coaches.


Yeah, he was OK.


Best Coaches in Hawks history, ranked in order.


1. Q
2. Keenan
3. Graham
4. Sutter
5. Murdoch
6. Tessier
7. Alpo
8. Savard
9. Pully
10. Reay

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Q Gone
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:32 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
The Score's playing the TV audio of Quenneville's no-man-in-the-box boner. I'm hearing this for the first time but Troy Murray was apoplectic as it was happening on the radio side.


That was interesting. Even though no one was in the box the penalty did expire so why didn't anyone else just go over the boards to join the game?

Because it would be a TMMOTI penalty. The team needs to return to full strength out of the penalty box. You don't have to have someone serve the full penalty, but you would need to get one in there at a stoppage late in the major.

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