Tariffs aren't the big issue in autos. GM is well established in China where Buick is considered a luxury brand. GM and Ford have been in Europe for years but have failed to build strong models. Domestically, Rick hit the nail on the head regarding their battles with Toyota and Honda. In North America, NAFTA provided for tariff free trade among the entire supply chain.

GM has always been bloated. That was a legacy from its oligopoly days where the unions had similar deals with the major manufacturers (same labor costs) and they had strong power over steel prices. Once the Japanese came in with better manufacturing processes and higher quality/gas mileage, the bloated structure could never be downsized fast enough. Overlay their poor marketing and longer term quality issues, and they destroyed a loyal customer base.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Bailing them out was a no brainer and was easily the correct thing to do. I can't even start to come up with the reasons why it was a bad idea at this point.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

This.

Just like conversely there is no cachet left in the Cadillac brand & it should've gone the way of Oldsmobile, but vocal public outrage from a very small number of people over "tradition" never would allow that to happen.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Bailout was paid back by all auto manufacturer, what's the problem? The dirty ads banks didn't deserve a bailout.

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GM is bloated but that's the natural progression of ultra successful companies that are over 100 years old. That's part of what is slowly happening with them. They are cutting costs(you know, the thing IMU is complaining about) but every car company is going to have to do it. Cars last far longer, people keep them longer, and people are owning less of them.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It's funny about Cadillac- we still use that term generically to mean "the best" of something. That item is the Cadillac of such and such. And yet the car brand has gone to crap but for the Escalade.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

That's not totally true either. The Cadillac has done well in the Car of the Year awards.

It's just hard for an American company to overcome the label of being a domestic car instead of the exotic European luxury cars. As you said, the Buick is a luxury brand in China.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

If you guys want to know when GM troubles really first started, the book While America Aged, profiles GM as one of its pension test cases. It is an absolute treat to read if you are interested in how the union and management started the demise. As an aside, they also profiled the NY MTA, which was part of the near 70's bankruptcy of that city, and then later on the San Diego pension problems.

Excellent read by Roger Lowenstein.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Well I am not talking about awards. They have built some strong cars. The problem is sales, and it is a perception issue.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

They are going to namecheck the tariffs as a scapegoat. Why wouldn't they? This is so soon after the mid terms, it will be a buried issue in 2020 when the Democrats try to resurrect it. Anyway the tariffs are there in theory to balance the trade deficit. This is a decades-long endeavor.

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I don't remember half the time if I'm hiding or I'm lost

Troof.

I've owned a '01 Acura TL and the transmission blew up before hitting 150K miles.
Then I bought a Kia Optima and the engine seized at 50K miles. Luckily engine was under recall and got a "free" new engine.

I want to trade in the Optima but it's free and clear. I hate notes so I'll keep it until the next thing blows up.

This is true. No matter how well a CTS or ATS is made people choose the Bez, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus over them if the price is remotely close. And also the price if they lowered it to undercut would be perceived as "oh look it is cheap crap". Catch 22 really.

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Elections have consequences.

It's the way it was done that was reprehensible. Bondholders took it up the ass.

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Do you even know what you're yelling about?

Have you seen Nardi's posts? He isn't that far behind The Hawk and FF in terms of not making sense.

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I. Was. Against. The. Bailout.

GM is poorly led and will be "restructuring" until they are delisted.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Then there is this nice piece of info: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gm-bought- ... will-save/

New headline:

GM Lays Off 14,000 Americans and Canadians; Increase Senior Executives' Effective Salaries

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I didn't know you were such a hater of corporations maximizing profits.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Stock buy backs are one of the worst plays by publicly traded companies. But they are not spending in an income statement sense. They are simply another way of returning money to shareholders just like dividends.

Unfortunately, institutional shareholders love stock buy back programs. Since they tend to boost stock prices, which ultimately is the purpose of being a shareholder. The flip side is that companies tend to take on too much debt or neglect capital spending in the process.

But the decision by GM to cut capacity and run rate costs is completely separate from buying back stock. If you don't need those plants to build cars, then they should be shut down.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

You are correct. This absolutely sucks, but no business could / should operate with multiple plants being under utilized. Production has decreased....regardless of the reaason....they sell what they sell.

This is the end result of problems dating many years. Call it product development....call it marketing. All of the above.

Of fuck it...let's just say it's Trump's fault.

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Not to be a smart-ass but he does indirectly have a hand in GMs decision.

His administration strongly advocates for domestic oil production and has relaxed vehicle fuel standards. So no shit people are buying SUVs and trucks.

So the real issue isn't tariffs, it's what Denis said above? Are the tariffs just their excuse to leave?

Cool, uno-clicked the audible version. Interested to listen up on the NYC 70's BR. Reading about pensions probably more interesting than Richard Power's 'The Overstory' that I'm currently struggling through. Maybe I shouldn't have expected Edward Abbey's 'Monkey Wrench Gang' but listening to the Overstory is like listening to someone randomly read from second-generation American-Chinese PhD students liveblogs in a Jo Koy/bung lu soo put-on-asian accent. Should dl a pirated kindle version and start over reading it instead of listening.

New York state pensions are supposedly 90% funded; New York City's various city teacher/police/fire/muni-ee funds average out to about 62% funded--which apparently alarms NYC pension watchers, as it's below the national average of 72% funded for big city pension funds. But 62% funded seems like a far-off pipe-dream for the City of Chicago's 23% average-funded pension system.

An econ professor was fond of noting that General Motors at some point in the past, might still be the case, had employees or retirees receiving a regular check from GM in every US zip code "except 2" (couple sparsely populated zip codes up in AK). Also, might be a myth but supposedly GM, thanks to its self-funded employee health care coverage, has in some years spent more on dick pills for its employees/retirees than on new product development. I think GM Financial ranks among the top fifty banks on the planet, in terms of assets.

GM killing off some of their more fun/interesting car lines. They neutered the Impala when they dropped RWD/V8 for FWD V6/4 cyl configurations--turning it into the car best to avoid when picking out a ride in a self-select rental lot. I've heard good things about the Volt, not marketed well-enough?

Buick's killing their amalgamated successor to the Lesabre/Park Avenue/Lucerne, the latest iteration of the Lacrosse in its 3rd year of production in 2019. Buick re-launched the Lacrosse couple years ago to make it more competitive with japanese/german luxury sport sedans. Beefing up the powertrain, 20-inch wheels, 9 speed transmission, manual shifting available via the increasingly ubiquitous-but-rarely-used paddle-shifters.

I don't understand why all these sport/luxury sedans get pushed out of the factory with sunroofs. Nothing's more detrimental to the long-term value of a vehicle than a putting a gonna leak sooner-or-later hole in the damn roof. And people probably use sunroofs about as often as they use paddle-shifters: maybe twice a year.

The pension book is really stories about how the problem came about. It also talks about social security. But moreso, it is about how the unions played the long game, while governments and management for cash flow reasons only thought of the next few years. As such, a current CEO or mayor would trade off large salary increases for down the road pension benefits. The union bosses were shrewd long term thinkers. You’ll love the stories.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

The money we bailed out GM with was loans, and they paid them back with interest.

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the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

Golly. With interest? Give 'em a bozo button. Yet here they are. Pointing fingers at the one creditor that took pity and saved their incompetent asses.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

GM's problems are going to get worse before they get better. The only loyal customers they have are baby boomers who can fondly remember the muscle car era, and these people are starting to retire and will not be spending the same amount of money on cars as they did in the past. I would say a significant amount of people under the age of 40, maybe as high as 1/2, would not consider buying a car from an American company under any circumstances.

Also, about the whole American v. Import debate. In my humble opinion, American cars have closed the feature gap (power, ride, fuel economy, interior, fit and finish, etc.), but they have not closed the quality gap. I don't know what stock all of you put in Consumer Reports, but their reliability ratings for Japanese cars are almost always higher than for American cars.

That's great, mike.

Well, thanks, I think.

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Elections have consequences.