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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:25 pm 
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Here i’ve been watching baseball to see players play. Guess I should start watching owners own.


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:26 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
Here i’ve been watching baseball to see players play. Guess I should start watching owners own.

Looking forward to your scouting report on David Glass (O, Kansas City).

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:27 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
You know what else is rising faster? The value of franchises.


You're right, but where should teams spend their money? I think 312 Player is right, most of these long term contracts don't work. I know I mentioned the league minimum and the average salary in my last post, but I would much rather see those numbers go up than the numbers for the Machados and Harpers of the world.


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:28 pm 
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Warren Newson wrote:
You're right, but where should teams spend their money?


Maybe they could try all their stuff they expect taxpayers to pay for.

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:30 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
Here i’ve been watching baseball to see players play. Guess I should start watching owners own.


Of course players are more interesting than owners, but how did you feel when Pujols got his contract or A-Rod got his contract? Were you happy for the player, or did you think the entire enterprise was ridiculous?


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:30 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
Here i’ve been watching baseball to see players play. Guess I should start watching owners own.

Looking forward to your scouting report on David Glass (O, Kansas City).

He negotiated a new vendor contract that will get a 3% higher ROI. Woo- hoo!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:32 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
You're right, but where should teams spend their money?


Maybe they could try all their stuff they expect taxpayers to pay for.


Amen to that. It seems like there might be some hope that we will live to see the end of tax payer subsidies for stadiums. I'm crossing my fingers and remaining optimistic.


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:33 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
That being said, I suppose I'm on the side of management here. There had to be some downward pressure on salary at some point. The salary of the highest paid player in the league, the league average salary, and the league minimum salary, were rising much faster than the wages that most of us on this board make for easily the last 30 years, if not longer.

But tickets aren't going down, beer's not going down, parking's not going down. That's just more money in the owners' pockets.

Ticket prices never a problem for us Sox fans.

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:48 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
Here i’ve been watching baseball to see players play. Guess I should start watching owners own.

Looking forward to your scouting report on David Glass (O, Kansas City).

I’m trying to think of the 5 tools for an owner:

1. Inherited wealth (Rickett’s is an 80)
2. Hiring/Firing (Reinsdorf is a 20)
3. Negotiating

I need 2 more.


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:57 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
Here i’ve been watching baseball to see players play. Guess I should start watching owners own.

Looking forward to your scouting report on David Glass (O, Kansas City).

I’m trying to think of the 5 tools for an owner:

1. Inherited wealth (Rickett’s is an 80)
2. Hiring/Firing (Reinsdorf is a 20)
3. Negotiating

I need 2 more.

Extorting public money


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:38 pm 
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18 teams reduced payroll from 2017 to 2018 -- and the average player salary actually decreased last year. It was only the fourth time in the last 50 years the average salary dropped.

Approximately 40.1 percent of league revenues were spent on player payroll in 2018. It was 43.3 percent five years ago and 48.9 percent 15 years ago.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/phil ... ee-agency/


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:59 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
Here i’ve been watching baseball to see players play. Guess I should start watching owners own.

Looking forward to your scouting report on David Glass (O, Kansas City).

I’m trying to think of the 5 tools for an owner:

1. Inherited wealth (Rickett’s is an 80)
2. Hiring/Firing (Reinsdorf is a 20)
3. Negotiating

I need 2 more.


The Brewers guy has Moxie (or luck) cornered.

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:53 am 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
18 teams reduced payroll from 2017 to 2018 -- and the average player salary actually decreased last year. It was only the fourth time in the last 50 years the average salary dropped.

Approximately 40.1 percent of league revenues were spent on player payroll in 2018. It was 43.3 percent five years ago and 48.9 percent 15 years ago.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/phil ... ee-agency/


I still keep coming back to this post from earlier this off-season...think of how many regrettable contracts have been done for players over 32 yrs old? Soriano, Bradley, Hawkins, Fukodome, Dunn, LaRoche, Alex Rios, Barry zito, Homer Bailey...the list goes on. It's not impossible to think the owners woke up and realized it's not in their best interests to piss money away. It's hard to call this collusion....it doesn't take a genious to see that signing guys at the tail end of their career for past accomplishments isn't the best way to spend your money. Every day we are getting articles crying about the lack of big FA contracts. I really hope the players shift their focus on addressing the younger players being held in the minor leagues....that's going to continue to a bigger problem for them.

conns7901 wrote:
https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/league-info/highest-paid-players/
1. Giancarlo Stanton, $325,000,000 (2015-27)
2. Alex Rodriguez, $275,000,000 (2008-17)
3. Alex Rodriguez, $252,000,000 (2001-10)
4. Miguel Cabrera, $248,000,000 (2016-23)
5. Albert Pujols, $240,000,000 (2012-21)
… Robinson Cano, $240,000,000 (2014-23)
7. Joey Votto, $225,000,000 (2014-23)
8. David Price, $217,000,000 (2016-22)
9. Clayton Kershaw, $215,000,000 (2014-20)
10. Prince Fielder, $214,000,000 (2012-20)
11. Max Scherzer, $210,000,000 (2015-21)
12. Zack Greinke, $206,500,000 (2016-21)
13. Derek Jeter, $189,000,000 (2001-10)
14. Joe Mauer, $184,000,000 (2011-18)
. . . Jason Heyward, $184,000,000 (2016-23)
16. Mark Teixeira, $180,000,000 (2009-16)
. . . Justin Verlander, $180,000,000 (2013-19)
18. Felix Hernandez, $175,000,000 (2013-19)
. . . Stephen Strasburg, $175,000,000 (2017-23)
20. Buster Posey, $167,000,000 (2013-21)
21. Jose Altuve, $163,500,000 (2018-24)
22. CC Sabathia, $161,000,000 (2009-15)
. . . Chris Davis, $161,000,000 (2016-22)
24. Manny Ramirez, $160,000,000 (2001-08)
. . . Matt Kemp, $160,000,000 (2012-19)
26. Troy Tulowitzki, $157,750,000 (2011-20)
27. Masahiro Tanaka, $155,000,000 (2014-20)
. . . Jon Lester, $155,000,000 (2015-20)
29. Adrian Gonzalez, $154,000,000 (2012-18)
30. Jacoby Ellsbury, $153,000,000 (2014-20)

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:04 pm 
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https://deadspin.com/baseball-doesnt-ne ... 1831644811

This article makes a lot of sense to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:07 pm 
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I see a lot of "dumb" and "stupid" contracts that led to WS appearances and wins on that list. It's crazy that fans don't want owners to spend money to try and win. How the hell did these guys convince everyone it's ok to lose?


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:09 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
How the hell did these guys convince everyone it's ok to lose?

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:41 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
I see a lot of "dumb" and "stupid" contracts that led to WS appearances and wins on that list. It's crazy that fans don't want owners to spend money to try and win. How the hell did these guys convince everyone it's ok to lose?


There are, but if I'm spending that kind of money it better guarantee it....and there were a lot of names given those years where the team did NOT go to the WS

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:53 pm 
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It's baseball. There are no guarantees but I'd far rather my team be "dumb" and aggressive than "smart" and passive.


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:04 am 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
It's baseball. There are no guarantees but I'd far rather my team be "dumb" and aggressive than "smart" and passive.

You're a sox fan, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:22 am 
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4. Miguel Cabrera, $248,000,000 (2016-23)
10. Prince Fielder, $214,000,000 (2012-20)
16. Justin Verlander, $180,000,000 (2013-19)

All 3 handed out by Pizza-Pizza man resulting in 0 WS championships for Detroit.





Tigers even sported a starting rotation that included Price/Scherzer/Porcello/Verlander on the same team and still couldn't giterdone:

8. David Price, $217,000,000 (2016-22)
11. Max Scherzer, $210,000,000 (2015-21)
16. Justin Verlander, $180,000,000 (2013-19)
Rick Porcello 4 yr(s) / $82,500,000
Anibal Sanchez


Tigers screwed up after the 2010 season resigning Brandon Inge when Adrian Beltre was sitting there ripe for the signing. Beltre was even a Boras client and Boras had a knack for getting his clients large deals from Pizza-Pizza guy and Dave Dombrowski. But the Tigers owner's had a thing for Inge and mandated that Dombrowski offer Inge a new contract before the final outs of Inge's expiring that season deal were even played.


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:27 pm 
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http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2579 ... ny-machado

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:32 pm 
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FrankDrebin wrote:
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/25797148/kris-bryant-chicago-cubs-frustrated-unsigned-bryce-harper-manny-machado

Bryant - "It's really weird. If I was an owner or GM, I'd want Machado or Harper on my team".

Then he let out a bodacious WOOO as he landed his frisbee 6 feet from the stick.


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:19 am 
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Nardi wrote:
FrankDrebin wrote:
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/25797148/kris-bryant-chicago-cubs-frustrated-unsigned-bryce-harper-manny-machado

Bryant - "It's really weird. If I was an owner or GM, I'd want Machado or Harper on my team".

Then he let out a bodacious WOOO as he landed his frisbee 6 feet from the stick.


Bryant and the rest of the players quoted in that article are morons. Of course owners and GMs want Machado and Harper...they just don't want to pay them outrageous sums. I'd like Bryant to provide a list of the 8-10 year deals that worked out for the owners.

And what is this love for Bryce Harper? The guy has had ONE great year. His WAR for two out of the last three years has been under 2. And owners should be jumping to give him $300-400m? What the fuck?

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:31 am 
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Players should probably push for a salary cap and floor in next agreement.

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:29 pm 
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It's Feb. 1, less than 2 weeks to pitchers & catchers. Here's the new normal in free agency:

16 teams haven't signed any free agent to a multi-year contract.
23 teams haven't signed any free agent to a deal longer than 2 years.

The discipline by clubs this winter unprecedented


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:34 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
It's Feb. 1, less than 2 weeks to pitchers & catchers. Here's the new normal in free agency:

16 teams haven't signed any free agent to a multi-year contract.
23 teams haven't signed any free agent to a deal longer than 2 years.

The discipline by clubs this winter unprecedented


The timing of this "new normal" still seems weird to me. Either every team reached the same conclusion independent from one another over a two year period or there's some kind of communication between teams here. I can see every team reaching the conclusion that 10 year deals are stupid independently from the other teams, but I can't see each team on it's own just deciding to not sign free agents at all, or to not sign them to deals before February.


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:38 pm 
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Warren Newson wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
It's Feb. 1, less than 2 weeks to pitchers & catchers. Here's the new normal in free agency:

16 teams haven't signed any free agent to a multi-year contract.
23 teams haven't signed any free agent to a deal longer than 2 years.

The discipline by clubs this winter unprecedented


The timing of this "new normal" still seems weird to me. Either every team reached the same conclusion independent from one another over a two year period or there's some kind of communication between teams here. I can see every team reaching the conclusion that 10 year deals are stupid independently from the other teams, but I can't see each team on it's own just deciding to not sign free agents at all, or to not sign them to deals before February.

Teams follow trends, and blogs have been saying these things for 10 years now. Some of those bloggers are now even working for MLB teams.

I'm not even sure what the point of collusion would be. The Yankees and other big market teams don't care at all about saving money as long as they are winning.

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:51 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
It's Feb. 1, less than 2 weeks to pitchers & catchers. Here's the new normal in free agency:

16 teams haven't signed any free agent to a multi-year contract.
23 teams haven't signed any free agent to a deal longer than 2 years.

The discipline by clubs this winter unprecedented


The timing of this "new normal" still seems weird to me. Either every team reached the same conclusion independent from one another over a two year period or there's some kind of communication between teams here. I can see every team reaching the conclusion that 10 year deals are stupid independently from the other teams, but I can't see each team on it's own just deciding to not sign free agents at all, or to not sign them to deals before February.

Teams follow trends, and blogs have been saying these things for 10 years now. Some of those bloggers are now even working for MLB teams.

I'm not even sure what the point of collusion would be. The Yankees and other big market teams don't care at all about saving money as long as they are winning.


Am I crazy, or has this trend only become noticeable over the past two off seasons? It very well could have been bubbling under the surface for some time, but it seems like these ideas are being acted on by all teams at the exact same time.


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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Warren Newson wrote:
Am I crazy, or has this trend only become noticeable over the past two off seasons? It very well could have been bubbling under the surface for some time, but it seems like these ideas are being acted on by all teams at the exact same time.
It seems like it has taken off in the past two years but that seems to be because almost all of these deals are failing.

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 Post subject: Re: Collusion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:13 pm 
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Not only due to failing deals but the "plan" is causing this as well. Especially since the Cubs and Astros teams have seen the trend in how to go. Why in the hell would 2/3 of the teams sign long term free agents when they are trying to lose and retool for a future window?

Zero chance they get a collusion ruling. The teams can trot out the plan blueprints as to why they are not signing.

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