Elway wasn't great for his era either. He's not an all time great. He was a good QB for a long time who got carried to two titles in his old age by Terrell Davis. Rule changes wouldn't help an inaccurate guy like him all that much.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Brees is a little midget with shit on his face. He’s a stat compiler that got paired with a coach that would rather sling the ball all over the field rather than win. Brees is overrated imo.

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Elway did kind of suck. until the last 4-5 years of his career. then he was great.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Elway may not be top 10 all time. But he was great for his era.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

You people are fucking stupid.

Elway was fucking awesome.

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I like thinking big. . . If you're going to be thinking anything, you might as well think big.
-Donald J. Trump, BPE

Just a short list of QBs with a better career passer rating:

1 Aaron Rodgers 103.1 2005-2018 gnb
2 Russell Wilson 100.3 2012-2018 sea
3 Drew Brees 97.7 2001-2018 2TM
4 Tom Brady 97.6 2000-2018 nwe
5 Tony Romo 97.1 2004-2016 dal
6 Steve Young+ 96.8 1985-1999 2TM
7 Peyton Manning 96.5 1998-2015 2TM
8 Philip Rivers 95.6 2004-2018 sdg
9 Kirk Cousins 95.0 2012-2018 2TM
10 Matt Ryan 94.9 2008-2018 atl
11 Ben Roethlisberger 94.2 2004-2018 pit
12 Kurt Warner+ 93.7 1998-2009 3TM
13 Joe Montana+ 92.3 1979-1994 2TM
14 Chad Pennington 90.1 2000-2010 2TM
15 Andrew Luck 89.5 2012-2018 clt
16 Marcus Mariota 89.4 2015-2018 oti
17 Matt Schaub 89.1 2004-2018 4TM
18 Colin Kaepernick 88.9 2011-2016 sfo
19 Derek Carr 88.8 2014-2018 rai
20 Andy Dalton 88.8 2011-2018 cin
21 Nick Foles 88.5 2012-2018 3TM
22 Matthew Stafford 88.4 2009-2018 det
23 Carson Palmer 87.9 2004-2017 3TM
24 Daunte Culpepper 87.8 1999-2009 4TM
25 Jameis Winston 87.8 2015-2018 tam
26 Jeff Garcia 87.5 1999-2009 5TM
27 Alex Smith 87.3 2005-2018 3TM
28 Ryan Tannehill 87.0 2012-2018 mia
29 Otto Graham+ 86.6 1946-1955 cle
30 Dan Marino+ 86.4 1983-1999 mia
31 Cam Newton 86.4 2011-2018 car
32 Brett Favre+ 86.0 1991-2010 4TM

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And the shorter list of QBs with a better passer rating than Elway:

1 Aaron Rodgers 103.1 2005-2018 gnb
2 Russell Wilson 100.3 2012-2018 sea
3 Drew Brees 97.7 2001-2018 2TM
4 Tom Brady 97.6 2000-2018 nwe
5 Tony Romo 97.1 2004-2016 dal
6 Steve Young+ 96.8 1985-1999 2TM
7 Peyton Manning 96.5 1998-2015 2TM
8 Philip Rivers 95.6 2004-2018 sdg
9 Kirk Cousins 95.0 2012-2018 2TM
10 Matt Ryan 94.9 2008-2018 atl
11 Ben Roethlisberger 94.2 2004-2018 pit
12 Kurt Warner+ 93.7 1998-2009 3TM
13 Joe Montana+ 92.3 1979-1994 2TM
14 Chad Pennington 90.1 2000-2010 2TM
15 Andrew Luck 89.5 2012-2018 clt
16 Marcus Mariota 89.4 2015-2018 oti
17 Matt Schaub 89.1 2004-2018 4TM
18 Colin Kaepernick 88.9 2011-2016 sfo
19 Derek Carr 88.8 2014-2018 rai
Andy Dalton 88.8 2011-2018 cin
21 Nick Foles 88.5 2012-2018 3TM
22 Matthew Stafford 88.4 2009-2018 det
23 Carson Palmer 87.9 2004-2017 3TM
24 Daunte Culpepper 87.8 1999-2009 4TM
Jameis Winston 87.8 2015-2018 tam
26 Jeff Garcia 87.5 1999-2009 5TM
27 Alex Smith 87.3 2005-2018 3TM
28 Ryan Tannehill 87.0 2012-2018 mia
29 Otto Graham+ 86.6 1946-1955 cle
30 Dan Marino+ 86.4 1983-1999 mia
Cam Newton 86.4 2011-2018 car
32 Brett Favre+ 86.0 1991-2010 4TM
Trent Green 86.0 1997-2008 4TM
34 David Garrard 85.8 2002-2010 jax
35 Donovan McNabb 85.6 1999-2011 3TM
36 Jay Cutler 85.3 2006-2017 3TM
37 Rich Gannon 84.7 1987-2004 4TM
38 Sam Bradford 84.5 2010-2018 4TM
Case Keenum 84.5 2012-2018 4TM
40 Marc Bulger 84.4 2002-2009 ram
Jim Kelly+ 84.4 1986-1996 buf
42 Joe Flacco 84.1 2008-2018 rav
Eli Manning 84.1 2004-2018 nyg
44 Mark Brunell 84.0 1994-2011 5TM
45 Roger Staubach+ 83.4 1969-1979 dal
46 Steve McNair 82.8 1995-2007 2TM
47 Brian Griese 82.7 1998-2008 4TM
Neil Lomax 82.7 1981-1988 crd
49 Len Dawson+ 82.6 1957-1975 3TM
Sonny Jurgensen+ 82.6 1957-1974 2TM
51 Brad Johnson 82.5 1994-2008 4TM
52 Matt Hasselbeck 82.4 1999-2015 4TM
53 Ken Anderson 81.9 1971-1986 cin
54 Bernie Kosar 81.8 1985-1996 3TM
Neil O'Donnell 81.8 1991-2003 4TM
56 Jason Campbell 81.7 2006-2014 5TM
Danny White 81.7 1976-1988 dal
58 Troy Aikman+ 81.6 1989-2000 dal
59 Randall Cunningham 81.5 1985-2001 4TM
Dave Krieg 81.5 1980-1998 6TM
61 Jake Delhomme 81.3 1999-2011 4TM
62 Kyle Orton 81.2 2005-2014 5TM
63 Boomer Esiason 81.1 1984-1997 3TM
Ryan Fitzpatrick 81.1 2005-2018 7TM
65 Warren Moon+ 80.9 1984-2000 4TM
66 Blake Bortles 80.6 2014-2018 jax
67 Jeff Hostetler 80.5 1985-1997 3TM
Bart Starr+ 80.5 1956-1971 gnb
69 Jeff George 80.4 1990-2001 5TM
Ken O'Brien 80.4 1984-1993 2TM
Fran Tarkenton+ 80.4 1961-1978 2TM
Michael Vick 80.4 2001-2015 4TM
73 Steve Beuerlein 80.3 1988-2003 6TM
74 Dan Fouts+ 80.2 1973-1987 sdg
75 John Elway+ 79.9 1983-1998 den

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Chad Pennington is #14. Throw that list in the garbage.

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I like thinking big. . . If you're going to be thinking anything, you might as well think big.
-Donald J. Trump, BPE

Glad to know I can disregard passer rating in the future. Any top ten list other than most overpaid QB that includes Cousins can be disregarded. I’ll take Marino at 30 and Elway at 75 and I think I’ll be just fine. For gods sake, it has Winston higher than Marino. If you’re just going off that ranking you shouldn’t even watch football let alone discuss it with other people.

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Bernstein would defend it. Which probably proves your point.

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Any QB career comparison based on cumulative stats is inaccurate. You must adjust for the era. Rather than looking at QB rating, I prefer to look at the value-based stats that some have put together. It is far from perfect but at least it judges players based on their peers during their era. Performances in the playoffs and Super Bowls count greatly.

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Lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be.

Agreed. Which is why that cocksucker Rivers has no business in the HOF either.

That is just wrong on all counts. Brees, to me, is at least a top five quarterback of all time. In no particular order, my five would be Montana, Brees, Brady, Unitas, and Rodgers.

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An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

Yep. No question.

Brady
Brees
Favre
Montana


Are all heads above Elway and his jackass friend Payton.

Put down the crackpipes

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Brees and Favre are heads above Manning? Dumbest comment I have read today.

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Lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be.

Manning was a playoff bum. Would never had gotten to a super bowl without the rule changes to contact after five yards. Ty Law by himself beat them one AFC Championship.

When he did get to the super bowl he played a weak Bears and Panthers team. When faced with a grown ass man team like the Seahawks he got mauled. Not to mention his second was on the back of an all time great d.

Over rated as fuck.

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Exactly. Elway lead his teams to 5 SB appearances and was a big reason they got there every one of those years (he had a lot of help for the final 2 but was still vital).


You can’t go off of stats for in comparing these guys depending on the era. There’s dude throwing for 4500 yards now in the NFL and that’s good for what, 5th or 6th in passing yards now lol?



Rule changes to the NFL and NBA have resulted in a huge increase in offensive numbers and results as well as extending the careers of guys like Brady and Brees.. it’s so frustrating having these discussions with people ignoring that stuff.


I put Rodgers above Elway personally, but in no way to do I consider John Elway overrated or outside of the top 10. I watched that dudes entire career and the Broncos were a lock for the ‘yoffs every damn year because of how great he was.


And as for individual talent? Elway was a fantastic scrambler and had one of the strongest arms in the NFL. So even going that route doesn’t drop him on any All Time list in my mind.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Also lol @ some of the people shitting on Favre in here.. nobody should know better than Bears fans how awesome that asshole was. I hate the bastard but he’s one of the greatest QB’s I’ve ever watched play the game.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

A lot of modern QB’s at the top of that list and at least 5 HoF’ers I spot at the bottom.. proof that league rule changes to increase offensive production have aided many players in the modern era.


I’d also add there’s a lot of guys above Elway on that list that have a much smaller sample size by comparison. Make that list for QB’s that started and played the majority of a season for at least 10 years and he goes way up that list.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Agreed.

Brees is way better than Elway.


The cult of Elway is amazing. He just wasnt as good as people wanted him to be. He was a good QB in his era.


His first 10 years in the NFL he threw 158 TDs and 157 Interceptions. There is no spinning that. (For reference Randall Cunningham was 147-100 in his first 10)

He was great his last 5 years.

Similar completion% between them. Elway also lead his teams to 3 SB's to Randalls 0. I'd argue that Randall had much better defenses on his teams to help him out during his Eagles run.. that said, Randall pre-injury (and even a little after his injury) was also a damn good QB.

During Elways era it was rare for more than 5-6 players to crack 60% completion ratios per season and typically around 63% was excellent and would be tops in the league back then. Getting into the 90's you saw this increase a little bit with guys like Steve Young but not to the hilarity that you see it today. These numbers today would be considered poor. The rule changes without question have skewered this conversation. Even Brees hovered around 60-65% in his SD days before the rule changes really started to effect thing. Theres no way in hell we'd be talking about Brady and Brees in the same light we do now if the rules never changed to not only help protect them (lengthening their careers) but also protect WR's too.


For some perspective (because I think its clear some people here either have none, or have long lost it..) Elways era QB's 'accuracy'..

Marino's lifetime completion% was 59%

Jim Kellys was 60%

Montana (considered by many at the time to be the GOAT) has a 63% career completion pct

And for the hell of it.. Cunninghams is 56% (slightly lower than Elways which is around 57-58).

Elway was also in the top-5 league wise in pass attempts almost every year which increased his odds of making mistakes and getting beat up by defenses.. but it also shows he carried his teams quite often.

His (Elways) record as a starting QB is 142-82-1 regular season, 14-8 post season with 5 SB appearances (2 wins)

Marino was 147-93-0 regular season, 8-10 post season with 1 SB appearance (zero rings).


And I don't really think you can argue that Elway had more around him than Marino did.. and I'd argue Marino had the better HC without question.

Now before anyone here thinks my point is to claim Elway>Marino.. I'm not saying that. But holding their careers up next to one another and comparing their actual accomplishments and some of their stats they're close to one another and Elway even exceeds Marino in some categories.

Montana, Elway, Marino, Moon and Kelly were all the top QB's of their era with guys like Aikman and Young showing up a little after and bleeding into their era. Young, imo belongs in the top-5 based off the fact he put up insane numbers in a much tougher era and also had rings to back it up as well.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Thanks for the post and not just cherry-picking a stat or two to draw a conclusion.

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Lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be.

NME gets it. Hating on Elway is a hipster move. It’s desperate and sad.

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Elway was good, just not nearly as good as some of you make him out to be. Putting him in a top 10 all time is a stretch, putting him in a top 5 is ridiculous.

And it's not cherry picking stats, DAC. TD and interceptions are pretty much the standard for judging all QB's.

Also, you can cite rule changes when the guys who played IN HIS ERA with the same rules were much more effective/accurate.

I cited rule changes in my post, but I compared his completion % to HoF’ers from his era.. he’s at 57% for his career, Moon 58%, Marino 59%, Kelly 60% and Montana 63%.. he also routinely attempted more passes than some of these guys.. nah, his accuracy is at least on par with them and was good for its day. He was a gun-slinger type QB that took chances with the ball tho.


I agree putting him in the top-5 may be a stretch, tho I think an argument is there depending on how much you think the modern rule changes have inflated QB success.


But top-10? I feel fine putting him there.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Favre couldn't be overrated for having the record for most consecutive games played, especially as a QB. He's the NFL's all-time iron man. Walter comes after Favre.

But for his era, he was probably second best after Steve Young, who had 3 Superbowl championships, a higher completion percentage and passer rating. Third is Elway.

what would "neutral era" look like? all kinds of variables. consider Farve was virtually unkillable. if he played today that trait would be less valuable.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Who had 3 Super Bowl Championships?

You're giving Young credit for holding a clip board for the first two Super Bowls?