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Nardi
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:14 pm 
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IMU wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Lots of people on their high horses say there doesn't have to be a beginning. These are also the same people who look at every single other thing and say, a caused b, and b caused c. Everything has to go back to an unmoved or primal mover(see Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Edward Feser), and there is zero chance of getting around that.


Another way of thinking about the Big Bang is that someone or something put it into motion. Newton's first law of motion states that "An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." Who or what put things in motion?

God has always been the answer to explain the unexplainable. As every decade passes, God explains less.

But in so far as human knowledge has been keeping score, Science is up approximately 10,000 to 0 on God, in things that can be explained.

God needs a coaching change...or maybe a good draft.

I agree there has been a god of the gaps until you get down to the very end of cause and effect. You eventually run out of cause and no one disagrees. Physicists punt and call it brute facts. The brute fact is there is nothing below the fundamental laws of physics. And brute facts CAN'T be explained and they have no intention of explaining it. It's very similar to scientists' attitude about Quantum physics. They no longer look for cause. They say, "shutup and do the calculations". The veneer of atheism is cracking. More and more are going agnostic. Because "I don't know" is a helluva lot more rational than digging in your heels and pissing all over your own scientific method.
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Brick
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:18 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Because "I don't know" is a helluva lot more rational than digging in your heels and pissing all over your own scientific method.
You do understand that "I don't know" is built into the scientific method?

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Nardi
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:21 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Circled back again. Every chemical had a beginning, was created.

God could be a spiritual being, all knowing, and timeless. That would be religion. God could have accidently created, had no idea what he had done, and then went on his merry way, oblivious.
It is certainly possible that chemicals were created by an intelligent being but it also clearly is not the only possible option.
Nardi wrote:
Lots of people on their high horses say there doesn't have to be a beginning. These are also the same people who look at every single other thing and say, a caused b, and b caused c. Everything has to go back to an unmoved or primal mover(see Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Edward Feser), and there is zero chance of getting around that.
This is further eroding your own point because no matter where you move it down the line, something had to exist that didn't have a beginning. Let's go with your accepted theory that "God" either accidentally or on purpose created everything we have and then disappeared. He either didn't have a beginning or he falls under the same concepts that you think prove his existence.

I agree my non-religious God is the weakest part of my argument. Physicality can't be timeless. But I still maintain it's possible for a non-physical god to not be religious based.
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Nardi
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:22 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Because "I don't know" is a helluva lot more rational than digging in your heels and pissing all over your own scientific method.
You do understand that "I don't know" is built into the scientific method?

Some scientists and all atheists ignore it.
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Brick
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:28 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
I agree my non-religious God is the weakest part of my argument. Physicality can't be timeless. But I still maintain it's possible for a non-physical god to not be religious based.
We are ultimately as smart as ants are in regards to the world outside our observable space. That doesn't limit the options though. It expands them and one of the options is that the entire universe is made up of chemical reactions and we are simply a small part of those that are more complex than any others that we know of.

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Telegram Sam
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:32 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
IMU wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Lots of people on their high horses say there doesn't have to be a beginning. These are also the same people who look at every single other thing and say, a caused b, and b caused c. Everything has to go back to an unmoved or primal mover(see Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Edward Feser), and there is zero chance of getting around that.


Another way of thinking about the Big Bang is that someone or something put it into motion. Newton's first law of motion states that "An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." Who or what put things in motion?

God has always been the answer to explain the unexplainable. As every decade passes, God explains less.

But in so far as human knowledge has been keeping score, Science is up approximately 10,000 to 0 on God, in things that can be explained.

God needs a coaching change...or maybe a good draft.

I agree there has been a god of the gaps until you get down to the very end of cause and effect. You eventually run out of cause and no one disagrees. Physicists punt and call it brute facts. The brute fact is there is nothing below the fundamental laws of physics. And brute facts CAN'T be explained and they have no intention of explaining it. It's very similar to scientists' attitude about Quantum physics. They no longer look for cause. They say, "shutup and do the calculations". The veneer of atheism is cracking. More and more are going agnostic. Because "I don't know" is a helluva lot more rational than digging in your heels and pissing all over your own scientific method.


I'm gonna give this one to Rick. It could be primordial soup. It was just there.

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pittmike
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:32 pm 
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IMU wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Lots of people on their high horses say there doesn't have to be a beginning. These are also the same people who look at every single other thing and say, a caused b, and b caused c. Everything has to go back to an unmoved or primal mover(see Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Edward Feser), and there is zero chance of getting around that.


Another way of thinking about the Big Bang is that someone or something put it into motion. Newton's first law of motion states that "An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." Who or what put things in motion?

God has always been the answer to explain the unexplainable. As every decade passes, God explains less.

But in so far as human knowledge has been keeping score, Science is up approximately 10,000 to 0 on God, in things that can be explained.

God needs a coaching change...or maybe a good draft.


I don't disagree with you. My main thing always is we do not know everything. Or everything about everything. Or 100% of everything. Nothing more.

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Nardi
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:34 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
I agree my non-religious God is the weakest part of my argument. Physicality can't be timeless. But I still maintain it's possible for a non-physical god to not be religious based.
We are ultimately as smart as ants are in regards to the world outside our observable space. That doesn't limit the options though. It expands them and one of the options is that the entire universe is made up of chemical reactions and we are simply a small part of those that are more complex than any others that we know of.

Again, every chemical had a beginning, every reaction had a cause. Quit denying science in the cause for science.
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Telegram Sam
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:41 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
I agree my non-religious God is the weakest part of my argument. Physicality can't be timeless. But I still maintain it's possible for a non-physical god to not be religious based.
We are ultimately as smart as ants are in regards to the world outside our observable space. That doesn't limit the options though. It expands them and one of the options is that the entire universe is made up of chemical reactions and we are simply a small part of those that are more complex than any others that we know of.

Again, every chemical had a beginning, every reaction had a cause. Quit denying science in the cause for science.


I'm still #TeamRick on this. Raw material could have just been there. Think of it as the beginning and end of both religion and scientific theory.

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Brick
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:58 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
I agree my non-religious God is the weakest part of my argument. Physicality can't be timeless. But I still maintain it's possible for a non-physical god to not be religious based.
We are ultimately as smart as ants are in regards to the world outside our observable space. That doesn't limit the options though. It expands them and one of the options is that the entire universe is made up of chemical reactions and we are simply a small part of those that are more complex than any others that we know of.

Again, every chemical had a beginning, every reaction had a cause. Quit denying science in the cause for science.
You keep on saying that. What was the chemical made of? What was the thing that made the chemical made of? This is the problem with saying "every reaction has a cause". This literally cannot be true because the first reaction had no cause.

That's why I keep on going back to you saying it was the only possibilities. It's clear that one of the possibilities is that whatever makes up everything that exists in the universe at a level we don't even fully understand exists in infinite time. With what we understand about how we perceive time compared to what time actually is it is almost impossible for us to truly understand but the closest is that every piece of you that has ever existed has existed for billions of years and will continue to exist for billions of years in one form or another. There will be change in state just like with all things but ultimately I could throw you into the sun and in a billion years the things that currently let you post on here would be doing whatever they do.

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Nardi
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 1:08 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
I agree my non-religious God is the weakest part of my argument. Physicality can't be timeless. But I still maintain it's possible for a non-physical god to not be religious based.
We are ultimately as smart as ants are in regards to the world outside our observable space. That doesn't limit the options though. It expands them and one of the options is that the entire universe is made up of chemical reactions and we are simply a small part of those that are more complex than any others that we know of.

Again, every chemical had a beginning, every reaction had a cause. Quit denying science in the cause for science.
You keep on saying that. What was the chemical made of? What was the thing that made the chemical made of? This is the problem with saying "every reaction has a cause". This literally cannot be true because the first reaction had no cause.

That's why I keep on going back to you saying it was the only possibilities. It's clear that one of the possibilities is that whatever makes up everything that exists in the universe at a level we don't even fully understand exists in infinite time. With what we understand about how we perceive time compared to what time actually is it is almost impossible for us to truly understand but the closest is that every piece of you that has ever existed has existed for billions of years and will continue to exist for billions of years in one form or another. There will be change in state just like with all things but ultimately I could throw you into the sun and in a billion years the things that currently let you post on here would be doing whatever they do.

I dunno. It seems to me I'm using science to make an argument and you are denying science to make yours. But, whatever, as long as it makes sense to you. I've said my piece.
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Brick
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 1:09 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
I dunno. It seems to me I'm using science to make an argument and you are denying science to make yours. But, whatever, as long as it makes sense to you. I've said my piece.
You aren't using science because you think the only two possibilities are God and an alien kid with a computer. I have explained one of many other possible explanations that aren't either of those things.

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Telegram Sam
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 1:15 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
I agree my non-religious God is the weakest part of my argument. Physicality can't be timeless. But I still maintain it's possible for a non-physical god to not be religious based.
We are ultimately as smart as ants are in regards to the world outside our observable space. That doesn't limit the options though. It expands them and one of the options is that the entire universe is made up of chemical reactions and we are simply a small part of those that are more complex than any others that we know of.

Again, every chemical had a beginning, every reaction had a cause. Quit denying science in the cause for science.
You keep on saying that. What was the chemical made of? What was the thing that made the chemical made of? This is the problem with saying "every reaction has a cause". This literally cannot be true because the first reaction had no cause.

That's why I keep on going back to you saying it was the only possibilities. It's clear that one of the possibilities is that whatever makes up everything that exists in the universe at a level we don't even fully understand exists in infinite time. With what we understand about how we perceive time compared to what time actually is it is almost impossible for us to truly understand but the closest is that every piece of you that has ever existed has existed for billions of years and will continue to exist for billions of years in one form or another. There will be change in state just like with all things but ultimately I could throw you into the sun and in a billion years the things that currently let you post on here would be doing whatever they do.

I dunno. It seems to me I'm using science to make an argument and you are denying science to make yours. But, whatever, as long as it makes sense to you. I've said my piece.


Technically, you are using a syllogism to counter Rick. Something works forward. Therefore, it should work backward.

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leashyourkids
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 6:26 pm 
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So, anyway, average movie.

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pittmike
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:02 pm 
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So the ending is Brick doesn’t believe in God or he thinks he is God?

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Brick
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:07 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
So the ending is Brick doesn’t believe in God or he thinks he is God?

Three Vodka Tonics In Pittsburgh PA

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Jbi11s
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 9:57 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
So, anyway, average movie.

Very good acting, but yeah def shouldn’t have won best picture at Golden Globes.

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Nardi
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:23 am 
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Jbi11s wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
So, anyway, average movie.

Very good acting, but yeah def shouldn’t have won best picture at Golden Globes.

The movie about a chick fucking a fish should have won.
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Jbi11s
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:27 am 
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Nardi wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
So, anyway, average movie.

Very good acting, but yeah def shouldn’t have won best picture at Golden Globes.

The movie about a chick fucking a fish should have won.

Dunkirk

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