Lebron's treatment of his teammates has been anything but exemplary. During the Kyrie Irving dustup it was surprising to see most of the guys who still happened to play with Lebron actually side with Irving.

Lebron also has always attempted to distance himself from whatever failures that were incurred by the teams he has played on. In some instances it can even be argued that he quit on certain teams during the season and Cleveland during the playoffs the first time around.
You also can see him pointing at teammates whenever there is a defensive lapse. Often times the defensive lapse is in fact his.

Lebron's treatment of his coaches i.e. Spoelstra, Blatt, and now Walton has also been anything but exemplary. You can often see him not even bothering to pay attention to his coach during timeouts. He doesn't even bother to stand in the huddle during timeouts.

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His talent as a player overcame his GM abilities.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

LeBron is now an excellent GM? He wasn't in Cleveland when then they got the assets to trade for Love or drafted Irving.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

Think ESPN misses LeBron? This story was sent out as a breaking news notification on the app.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

This "LeBron as GM" thing started on the board as a way to mock LBJ's move to Miami and subsequent attempts to build his own teams. I think the model is an excellent development for players who are able to capitalize on their talent and marketability to forge their own futures. The root issue is the conflicting interest between the players and the owners. Owners more or less want to turn a profit year in and year out. Profit does not depend on competitiveness. Players more or less want to win, which at the very least depends on being competitive. The players, however, do not own the means of making their own teams largely competitive. All they can control is their own effort on a day-to-day level; individual max effort day in and day out does not equate to wins and championships. Additional resources are required, but in that regard the players are subject to the fiscal whims of owners and the vision/aptitudes of GMs. You can squander all your talent and abiliites over the course of your entire career if your front office is incompetent, or if your owner simply doesn't give a shit about being competitive.

The LBJ model is to say fuck that, I'm not gonna depend on some profit-driven owner or incompetent GM to optimize my chances at realizing team success. I'm going to make my own luck. It's the ideal model staunch libertarians like FF should appreciate but he appears to be still stuck in the Matrix where it's acceptable to have Gar Forman decide whether you win or not instead of you deciding that for yourself. What LBJ is doing is nothing more than holding out for the best salary possible during a negotiation, or ensuring your department commits to funding an IT solution you need to do your own job well. He's reducing the degree to which he leaves his potential for team success up to chance.

And he owns it: eight years in the finals, three wins and five losses. Except for the series where Love and Irving were both out due to injuries, there are no excuses for the losses. He had what it took to win and he lost more than he won. But he gave himself the best shot to be there in the first place. Can't say the same about many other stars who left their chances up to front offices.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

You got shit twisted. I don’t have a problem with the player empowerment thing and I don’t hate LeBron because of that. He’s just not as good as guys like Jordan and Kawhi.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Kawhi is a great player but LBJ is next level. Kawhi's game is just a small slice of LBJ's overall repertoire. LBJ can do all that and more.

Good to know you're on the right side of history with respect to players being their own GMs.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Why do some seem to get so hurt if you happen to have the opinion that LBJ is something less than the greatest of all time? Or even less than MJ?

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Elections have consequences.

Because rebounds?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Who is hurt?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

You did randomly bring up Jordan punching teammates.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'd like to see you further develop this statistical model. So far as I can tell your model diminishes the impact of changes in possession, such as steals and rebounds.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

For context. MJ is clearly the most successful superstar in recent history.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

It is a general question. Pick anyone you like here or elsewhere.

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Elections have consequences.

What do you mean steals? Jordan's career average in steals is higher than LeBrons career high.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I don't know where the rebound comment came from but in general it appears you don't value rebounds. I mentioned steals because functionally a defensive rebound and a steal are the same thing. If you don't value rebounds then you can't value steals. In any case I'd never knock Jordan for not averaging many rebounds - it seems his rate was in line with guys at his position, so you may be confusing me with someone else.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Was LeBron going to Miami entertaining? Certainly. But we will see if it's good for the league long term. I highly doubt that superstars grouping together to play in a few markets will be a net positive in the league going forward.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

LeBron has never even been close to as good as Kawhi at scoring and at defense. Ya know, the two most important things on a basketball court.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Pretty much every LeBron > Jordan argument centers around "But Rebounds!".

Though this last season pretty much ended that discussion anyways.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Sounds like dumb arguments. LBJ is more talented than MJ and it has nothing to do with rebounds. He's supposed to rebound more anyway due to his size and position

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Why is LeBron more talented?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Lebron is a better passer. May shoot it from deep better. Michael Jordan was better off the dribble than Lebron. He was better defensively than Lebron. He was a better post player than Lebron. Better mid range than Lebron. He was more dominant offensively than Lebron. I don't know where you get "more talented" from.

Even if you want to argue physically talented I'd dispute that as well. Lebron was bigger and stronger. He was never quicker and in terms of agility Jordan was light years ahead of him. Jordan also had something like a 46"-48" inch vertical leap
Athletically all the physical tools that you would wish upon a basketball player Michael Jordan had.

_________________

This is the question that LeBron people can never actually answer because as soon as they give what they think is the correct answer the obvious rebuttal is "so Russell Westbrook is also more talented than Michael Jordan by that logic" and then they shut up.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

6 titles? Get back on the court, MJ, only 17 to go:

Jordan is a scorer. LBJ is a playmaker and a scorer. As a result he's more dynamic. He sees the court better than Jordan which means he optimizes the talents of other players by setting them up to make plays. He can create from nothing, like Jordan, and create for the other four players on the court, unlike Jordan. Due to his size and strength advantage, he plays more positions than Jordan. That also goes for defense. In 1998 you'd never see MJ guarding Malone and Stockton on a regular basis in the same game. LBJ could do that.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Agreed that LBJ can do more things than MJ on a basketball court. So could Shawn Marion. That’s a weak as fuck argument.

I love all around players as much as the next guy but the sport of basketball ultimately comes down to two simple things: scoring the basketball and preventing the other team from scoring. Jordan was significantly better than LeBron at both ends to the point where it’s not comparable. Stating LeBron is/was better than MJ is no different than saying Russell Westbrook is/was, and for the same ignorant reasons. It completely betrays reality.

It feels like you’re trying to argue an abstract concept while forgetting that most of us watched both of these guys play. There’s really not a debate to non stat nerds, nor should there be. Tim Duncan is the closest we’ve seen since Jordan in terms of dominant superstar.

Edit: also the notion that Jordan didn’t make his teammates better and wasn’t a playmaker is stupid as fuck. Please do better in the future veganfan. That statement is equivalent to me saying Mahomes doesn’t throw deep. Stop starfucking stats and just watch the games these guys played.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Jordan made everyone that played with him better. I guarantee a 35 year old Jordan played more defense than LeBron did this year.

Check out Jordan's 88-89 season and see how great he could be as an all-around player. And that's against bigger, tougher players who beat the shit out of him.

_________________
Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Jordan made castoffs look great. He was also a better defender. LeBron isn't guarding very well against HOF PF like Malone. He probably could do an admirable job though.

Name a player like Malone that LeBron made a big difference on.

I would also say that Paxson and Kerr may disagree on your thoughts on creating for others. Even Kyrie basically did it himself to hit the series winning shot.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I’m not the one to convince my man. It’s veganfan who thinks every superstar prior to 2000 was the equivalent of DeMar DeRozan or Andre Drummond.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I was just adding on to your points.

_________________
Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."