You didn't subtract the 1473 to "unknown location"

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

I guess that's fair, but in those unknown locations, he has a .246 BAbip and .610 OPS. We aren't exactly talking about 1427 scalded balls.

Anyway, let's say he is 20% to the opposite field, to Rizzo's 15%. Rizzo is a prime example of an extreme pull LH batter, and Gwynn only put 4 balls to the opposite field for every 3 that Rizzo puts over there. Gwynn's career BA would have been impacted. He'd still have been a .300 hitter, but we'd not be looking at a .340 hitter.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

https://collection.baseballhall.org/PAS ... 982-1987-0

Whitey Herzog created spray charts for opposing batters. If this gives any indication of what Gwynn did for his career, which I think it does, he hit the ball the opposite way more often than not.

They even coined the term 5.5 Hole for the space between shortstop and third base for him.

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I bet those were homeruns that haven't landed yet.

the data we have to work with is super sketchy.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Gwynn would've loved to see a shift. It would be like Christmas for about a week, and then back to no shift.

Anyone that watched Gywnn plays knows how much he used the opposite field and up the middle.

I get everything today is about looking at stats. But stats do not tell the whole story.

Gywnn would not have been bothered at all by a shift.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Stats are a record of what happened. Usually pretty more reliable than 'this is what I remember from 35 years ago.'

Yes, Tony Gwynn would have made some adjustments. And yes, Tony Gwynn would have still been a very successful, Hall of Fame hitter. But he would be missing a few ground ball hits.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

If teams would have moved the second baseman or right fielder over to the left side of the diamond, Gwynn would have just pulled the ball and "hit it where they ain't", if you will.

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One of those arguments that’s impossible to factually answer so best to keep arguing about it another few pages.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

312Hawk'

Hear hear!

Sure the shift works on most players, every really good players. There are also players who were masterful with the bat. The shift would have had minimal effect. Ichiro comes to mind. Rose, Brett, Carew, etc.

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Name somebody better since 1978

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Who cares about the shift, obviously Gwynn would be lucky to hit .270 against today POWER ARMS and BIG [insert color of pitcher here] STUDS. Gwynn would have pooped his pants if he ever had to face a staff with DOMINANT SPIN RATES like the LA Dodgers 20 times a year. The ANALYTICAL POWER OF CARMINE would have made him obsolete.

The major flaw in your logic is that Gwynn really had no reason to try and hit to the open parts of the field in a shift because teams weren't doing it against him.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Sounds like there is no reason Gwynn shouldn't have bat 1.000. "Just hit the ball to the open parts of the field!"

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

And modern players have no reasons to try and hit the open parts of the field because everyone has figured out that team run production is better tied to OBP and SLG than BA, and players that don't sacrifice 2B and HR power are the most productive players.

Simply put, he was inefficient. And a 71% stolen base rate? Ouch.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Why wouldn't Gwynn come to the same realization then?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I don't think Tony Gwynn was some untapped fountain of power. But maybe. This discussion is all maybes; I guess we entertain them all.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

The way he played was working very well for the time period he played in. It's just like the "Jordan couldn't shoot 3's that well" argument. While true, he didn't really need to do it to be a dominant player which meant there wasn't a great reason for him to do it.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yaz

Just went to look at Gwynn's strikeouts by year...crazy low (29 per 162 games).

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And out is an out

Yup. It's not one of those things you can quantify, unlike allowing zero base runners versus allowing two base runners.

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Correct

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Better than Rizzo's 62.7%.

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At least you're now comparing Anthony Rizzo to Hall of Famers and not bottom-half first basemen.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

The "Things IMU is Wrong About" has now officially gone from a leaflet to a book (a thin one, but a book nonetheless.)

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"All crowds boycotting football games shouldn't care who sings or takes a knee because they aren't watching." - Nas

The key being I'm published now!

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Thought some of you might like this article on Gwynn. It’s well written anyway

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnati ... san-player

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul