Again, I'm not talking about you and me. We're discussing the politics of people with deeply held religious beliefs.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I understand that. And you’re telling those people to ignore those beliefs and instead become single issue abortion voters.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'm not telling anyone anything. I'm saying I understand Ahmari's perspective. And I think there's a lot more at issue than just abortion.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You literally said every conservative should vote for Trump. That’s telling people things.

Anyway, I understand the SC arguments full well. That’s not a counterargument, in fact, it supports what I’m saying. “Vote for your team and not your morality”. It’s about pragmatism and nothing else and it’s not a novel idea. It is one that’s become a pretty poisonous one though.

Ahmari’s argument is significantly worse, although I would assume you would know that would be my reaction. He’s a piece of shit based on that firstthings.com article. You may notice I don’t use the term fascist flippantly here, I’ve never called Trump one, etc, but that’s what he’s proposing in that article arguing against French. Complete control by the State over everything. It’s quite sad and a little disconcerting you support that, but again, it backs up what I’ve been saying about your political beliefs. You espouse pretty extreme right wing rhetoric on here a lot and that’s the latest example.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Again, you've got it completely backward. The only way to support your morality is to vote for a guy who isn't really on your team.

In any case, I'm not advocating here. I'm just explaining a thought process that I find eminently logical. Why don't you ask Seacrest why he thinks supporting Trump is a better way to promote his morality than voting for/supporting whatever the alternative is. And I assure you Seacrest is well aware of what he considers the moral failings of Donald Trump.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

This is quite possibly the most dishonest and bad faith statement ever made in this forum. And now I'm done having this conversation with you as you obviously are not capable of controlling your emotions in a discussion.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

When anyone tries anything more nuanced than "Trump is bad" that's where the conversation ends up.

_________________
Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

Seacrest loves Trump. Didn't he brag about visiting the White House?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Of course, I'm going to get angry when someone is ignoring the things I'm actually saying in an attempt to promote some alternate reality. How many fucking times have I said here that I would never vote for Donald Trump? So it's either willfully ignored or I'm being called a liar.

But Ahmari's point is made. Ahmari is a "piece of shit" for wanting his morality to prevail, while those who support individual autonomy as the greatest value are "good people" for doing everything in their power to make their morality the prevailing American culture. I may be a libertine, but I don't think I'm better than anyone else.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Better than someone who gets an abortion!

_________________

Nope. I don't look at it that way. Because I'm not coming at it from a religious perspective. I don't judge women who want abortion to remain legal and easy to obtain. If I did I wouldn't have a wife or any female friends.

My view is that we must make decisions about the way we want to live based on a hierarchy of values. What is a higher value- a woman's ability to terminate a pregnancy at any time or protecting the life of the indisputably unique human being that is growing inside her? I have my opinion (likely betrayed by the wording I choose in the previous sentence which I didn't even realize until I was finished) but I'm not going to call you evil for disagreeing. I think if humanity makes it 1000 years and people in the future are writing histories we will be known for two things- technological advancement and killing our children. But maybe not.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Yes. he literally has the point of the article completely backwards.

The Trump hatred is truly an incredible phenomenon.

_________________

Because the US Supreme Court invented abortion in Roe v Wade? Men and women have been killing off the unborn as far back as we have historical records of our sound and fury. While I'm firmly in the it's killing and wrong camp (raised Catholic and all), hard to see the humanity in forcing women back to being thrown down stairs, punched in the stomach or fed cocktails of questionable composition b/c some evangelicals in the late 70's decided to galvanize their base around a new issue; now that it was no longer to copacetic to appear in public draped head-to-toe in 200 thread count.

One of the more sensible things written about Roe v Wade in the immediate aftermath of the decision:


[ ] = Southern Baptist[s] https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blog ... oe-v-wade/

Again, I think it's you who has it completely backward. That isn't the only way to support your morality and if you're a Christian it's an easy way not to.

But we aren't gonna agree on this. We can keep repeating the same shit to eachother for years.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I understood the article. It wasn't all that deep. It's you and JORR who didn't seem to understand what it was saying.

I don't hate Trump. I dislike the guy but I disliked Obama and W too. I mainly have no time or patience for the "lesser of two evils" talk. That dumbass mindset got us Trump and Hillary as the nominees last time. I don't have much hope for better nominees next time.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

No as an industry and with the vociferous support of about half the population.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I think we can start calling you a Conservative when you start using tired talking points like the abortion "industry".

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I’m sorry, you don’t understand the article or my position.

I don’t believe as a matter of principle or theology in the lesser of two evils.

I don’t think you mischaracterized my position on purpose though.

_________________

The ever growing list doesn't stop there.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Yeah, believing the government shouldn't spy on its citizens is a conservative viewpoint. Your hatred of a president has turned you into an unquestioning supporter of law enforcement. Do you have the black and blue flag in your window?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

If you support Ahmari's article I didn't mischaracterize your position at all.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

That's something that the militant pro-lifers have done well, forced abortion services out of hospitals/primary medical care centers into off-site clinics.

Have a friend who's an MBA working in the health-care field. Dude got a premo offer from the UofC Med Center a few years out of B-school and was torn about accepting it. Told me that with so many hospitals run by Catholics even a Russian Jew couldn't risk having an abortion-affiliated provider on his CV as the Catholic hospitals/health-care providers would never hire him down the road. The hiring manager at UofC medical told him that 's why they kick all their abortions out to the Ryan Center. Plausible deniability? He ended up taking the job.

Wasn't around back before Roe v Wade (glad my 'rents didn't abort my post RoevWade ass)....but I'd imagine that back then, pre-Roe v Wade and the attendant evangelical adoption of the issue--barring a legal prohibition or moral compunction --every/any doctor was an abortion doctor. Heck, long before RU-486 and Roe teenage girls who'd missed their monthly and didn't wanna spend junior year away at some distant relative's dairy farm while they carried the child to term would be able to go down to the local chemist/pharmacist and get a selection of miscarriage inducing drugs.

Reminds me of back when Dr Kevorkian was doing his thing, going around and very publicly assisting suicides. A plaintiff's defence attorney with a bunch of doctors as clients said to a stethoscope his physician clients all hated what Kevorkian was doing. They'd been humanely helping terminal patients end things regularly all their careers. But with Kevorkian doing his thing and drawing all manner of public and legal attention to the issue they were suddenly on shaky legal ground.

How about legalized killing of government pensionaires once they are past the age of viability.

It creates a nice bookend to the abortion expansion, will save the state money and provide some certainty to actuarial tables.

If you are against this then tell me the number of old people you are adopting.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Quit stealing my bits.

_________________

I'm sorry, but coming from the author of the Seriously thread, you've forfeited the principled high ground you've long thought you've held. Most of your posts that aren't "but Hillary " are unabashedly in defense of trump while wrongly claiming some lofty notions of American ideals. Your fallback empty rants next are about spying and then your high handed counter attacks claim everything is indicative of irrational trump hatred but never an objective critique of the pitiful record.

His family and administration is unethically raking in the cash based on their positions as insiders, but crickets from you. He's separating babies from their families and putting internment camps on the borders both with no position from you. He's openly obstructing justice, but nothing from JORR. Stupid tariffs...muted JORR. Dumb tax policy and mounting debt, no position. And I could go on, just like anyone here to the center left of you or your supporters like SomeGuy and the Hawk. Telling.

We're an embarrassment on the world stage to allow him to deflect attention from the walls closing in on his criminal enterprise and we get you whining about Hillary giving a commencement address. Your guy has no clothes and the only ones oblivious to that are you and your loyal synchophants here.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

I'm against doctor assisted suicide too. Mainly because there is too much opportunity for abuse. I'm not against it in principle if there were some way to make sure the party had complete control over the process. But you can just see a bunch of greedy kids pressing some half-crazy old person to do it because they can't wait to get their hands on some cash or having a sick old person around is a pain in their ass.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

It's the plot of one of Christopher Buckley's ('Thank You For Smoking') lesser/later novels:

That speech she gave is disgusting. You apparently stopped believing that a candidate's failure to accept election results was dangerous as soon as Donald Trump won the election.

And I'm sorry you can't deal with the fact that your fellow citizens selected a person you loathe as president. That doesn't mean that it's a good idea for you or some #RESISTANCE who believe they know better to try everything possible to remove him from office. If that's a conservative position, I'll own it. Up until Hillary Clinton lost it was something nearly every American agreed on.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The huge difference here is that no old person is reliant on any single person in order to be able to live.

This question was ignored by all, but this is a perfect illustration as to the point.

A child develops a medical issue that can only be solved by a kidney transplant. The father is a match. Should the state require him to donate his kidney to his child?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

yeah, good point. especially with reduced family sizes nowadays. Could see that happening to some widows with only one or two kids out of state out who fly home to sign off on the terminal fentanyl dose and sell off the family home.