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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:59 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
One solution might be to structure the clues so that the more useful hints come later and let players interrupt at the peril of answering with limited information. Quiz bowl, in other words, or Sale of the Century minus the opportunity to buy an armoire for five dollars.

Or just write tougher clues.



Daily Doubles should require the contestant to bet everything he has.


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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:15 pm 
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I don't particularly understand suggestions the game is flawed and find that take very Bernsteinish. Daily Doubles have always allowed the possibility of huge swings and that's one of the things that makes a game show entertaining.

And as far as hunting for them goes, it's not like James was particularly unique in that regard. Chuck Forrest was bouncing between categories, sometimes in search of Daily Doubles and sometimes just to throw off opponents over 30 years ago. Twitter SJW favorite Arthur Chu did the same thing, as did all of the better all-star contestants in the tournament from a few months ago (and Brad's success in finding them is one of the main reasons he beat Ken yet again).

If for whatever reason someone wanted to still fix this non-issue, simply randomizing the actual locations of the Daily Doubles such that they could occur in top row clues and even twice in single columns seems a lot less radical than some of the ideas being proposed.


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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:20 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
I don't particularly understand suggestions the game is flawed and find that take very Bernsteinish. Daily Doubles have always allowed the possibility of huge swings and that's one of the things that makes a game show entertaining.

And as far as hunting for them goes, it's not like James was particularly unique in that regard. Chuck Forrest was bouncing between categories, sometimes in search of Daily Doubles and sometimes just to throw off opponents over 30 years ago. Twitter SJW favorite Arthur Chu did the same thing, as did all of the better all-star contestants in the tournament from a few months ago (and Brad's success in finding them is one of the main reasons he beat Ken yet again).

If for whatever reason someone wanted to still fix this non-issue, simply randomizing the actual locations of the Daily Doubles such that they could occur in top row clues and even twice in single columns seems a lot less radical than some of the ideas being proposed.


No, the game must be destroyed.


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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:24 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
One solution might be to structure the clues so that the more useful hints come later and let players interrupt at the peril of answering with limited information. Quiz bowl, in other words, or Sale of the Century minus the opportunity to buy an armoire for five dollars.

Or just write tougher clues.


Doesn't Jeopardy work from a defined set of sources? Might've been one of the tips the original Jeopardy whisperer had on his website, "watch the credits and write down the names of the books/periodicals" they cite as sources for questions/answers.

So they end up with something akin to Mike Leach/Chip Kelly's offense: 144 ways to run 12 plays.

e.g., when Elizabethan playwrights are in play, if it's not Shakespeare, it's either Marlowe or Ben Johnson or maybe the odd Middleton or Dekker or Fletcher. But from what I could tell, if it's one of the more obscure ones, it's not gonna be a complicated clue or deep pull from that guy's work or background.

Whereas if the question seems inscrutable, it's gonna be one of the main guys/better known works. They're sending 3 guys in motion and have the QB start off lined up behind the tight end to run a simple slant.

So you ignore the fact that the clue references something you've never seen before and start pulling individual words out of the clue and throw em against the works of Bill/Ben/Kit (as Holzauer dude wrote) and see if anything clicks e.g., this somewhat recentish Final Jeopardy clue under the category "Plays", which only 1 of the 3 got right, 1 had no response and the 3rd guy, who won by default on dollars, answered by badly translating Un Capitano Moro as "Capt Death".

"Plays"
Quote:
"This play was derived from a 1565 story, “Un Capitano Moro”.


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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:40 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
In the meantime, it was the librarian who made the wrong play. She should have bet 0.


Would be interesting game theory. If she knew that he knew that she would bet x to stay ahead...but then what if he knew, etc.


Her only two sensible plays were $0 since she should have known the way he would bet given his history (she couldn't have lost with a $0 bet) or all her money in order to maximize since Shakespeare was a specialty.
Given how the game had played out, odds were they would both get the correct answer. Thus she bet just enough so that she would win even if he had bet everything. I get why he didn't but I also understand her thought process.

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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:41 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
In the meantime, it was the librarian who made the wrong play. She should have bet 0.


Would be interesting game theory. If she knew that he knew that she would bet x to stay ahead...but then what if he knew, etc.


Her only two sensible plays were $0 since she should have kny (she couldn't have lost with a $0 bet) or all her money in order to maximize since Shakespeare was a specialty.

Betting to cover an all-in by second is generally seen as a completely acceptable wager by a leader. I think the only time it makes game theoretic sense to go all in or bet nothing as a leader is in a tie game. The archive's algorithm suggests James' wager is mathematically correct for the scenario, but Emma's is as well.

And criticizing it with second order considerations about what she should know about James doesn't make much sense to me because she said she wasn't aware of his streak until she showed up for the taping.


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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:57 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
In the meantime, it was the librarian who made the wrong play. She should have bet 0.


Would be interesting game theory. If she knew that he knew that she would bet x to stay ahead...but then what if he knew, etc.


Her only two sensible plays were $0 since she should have kny (she couldn't have lost with a $0 bet) or all her money in order to maximize since Shakespeare was a specialty.

Betting to cover an all-in by second is generally seen as a completely acceptable wager by a leader. I think the only time it makes game theoretic sense to go all in or bet nothing as a leader is in a tie game. The archive's algorithm suggests James' wager is mathematically correct for the scenario, but Emma's is as well.

And criticizing it with second order considerations about what she should know about James doesn't make much sense to me because she said she wasn't aware of his streak until she showed up for the taping.



She did? That's kind of odd. I would think you would want to know who you are up against. And if you are enough of a fan of the show that you tried out it's hard to believe you could have missed what this guy was doing.

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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm 
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If it's anything like Price is Right or Wheel of Fortune, they film a month of shows back-to-back-to-back in a week of production and do so a couple months ahead of time.


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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:04 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
In the meantime, it was the librarian who made the wrong play. She should have bet 0.


Would be interesting game theory. If she knew that he knew that she would bet x to stay ahead...but then what if he knew, etc.


Her only two sensible plays were $0 since she should have kny (she couldn't have lost with a $0 bet) or all her money in order to maximize since Shakespeare was a specialty.

Betting to cover an all-in by second is generally seen as a completely acceptable wager by a leader. I think the only time it makes game theoretic sense to go all in or bet nothing as a leader is in a tie game. The archive's algorithm suggests James' wager is mathematically correct for the scenario, but Emma's is as well.

And criticizing it with second order considerations about what she should know about James doesn't make much sense to me because she said she wasn't aware of his streak until she showed up for the taping.



She did? That's kind of odd. I would think you would want to know who you are up against. And if you are enough of a fan of the show that you tried out it's hard to believe you could have missed what this guy was doing.
I think the guy said on Dan Patrick that the episode he lost in was filmed in March.

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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:05 pm 
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Yeah that episode was taped March 12, which was a few weeks before his first episode even aired. If anything, only knowing that James has won money at a higher rate than anyone ever has on the show suggests making the standard cover bet while in the lead even more strongly.


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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:08 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Yeah that episode was taped March 12, which was a few weeks before his first episode even aired. If anything, only knowing that James has won money at a higher rate than anyone ever has on the show suggests making the standard cover bet while in the lead even more strongly.



Makes sense.

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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:13 pm 
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JORR's 0$ wager for a player in the librarian's position might be tempting if the Final Jeopardy category revealed an Achilles heel for the player, like if it were freaking Opera or Black History or Women's History or Native History or Classic Cinema/old films or whatever it's called. Those are tough, I only know like Martin, Malcom and the guy who invented peanut butter. and fuck-all about women's or native people's history. Might get lucky and it'd actually be Magic Flute or Don Giovanni or Casablanca/Citizen Cane.


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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:50 pm 
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Hussra wrote:
JORR's 0$ wager for a player in the librarian's position might be tempting if the Final Jeopardy category revealed an Achilles heel for the player, like if it were freaking Opera or Black History or Women's History or Native History or Classic Cinema/old films or whatever it's called. Those are tough, I only know like Martin, Malcom and the guy who invented peanut butter. and fuck-all about women's or native people's history. Might get lucky and it'd actually be Magic Flute or Don Giovanni or Casablanca/Citizen Cane.


I wish I could remember which episode it was, but a year or two ago there was a dude who radiated Strong Male Ally so hard, I couldn't believe he didn't do the whole show with a soy face. Women in History was a category and he hit the Daily Double there. With a big, shit-eating grin, he wagered almost everything he had. He whiffed. I laughed.

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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:14 pm 
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Hussra wrote:
JORR's 0$ wager for a player in the librarian's position might be tempting if the Final Jeopardy category revealed an Achilles heel for the player, like if it were freaking Opera or Black History or Women's History or Native History or Classic Cinema/old films or whatever it's called. Those are tough, I only know like Martin, Malcom and the guy who invented peanut butter. and fuck-all about women's or native people's history. Might get lucky and it'd actually be Magic Flute or Don Giovanni or Casablanca/Citizen Cane.


I didn't realize Emma wasn't really familiar with Holzhauer's play. I had no idea they had so many shows stacked up. But if you watched the guy play you knew he was going to bet what he did. It wasn't a surprise.

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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:21 pm 
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I think they tape Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday, lunch break, Thursday-Friday each day (That's why being a game show host was nice work if you could get it: you could shoot thirteen weeks of shows in three weeks), but James lost on a Monday, so she wouldn't have had a chance to sit in the audience and watch him work.

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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:30 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
I think they tape Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday, lunch break, Thursday-Friday each day (That's why being a game show host was nice work if you could get it: you could shoot thirteen weeks of shows in three weeks), but James lost on a Monday, so she wouldn't have had a chance to sit in the audience and watch him work.

I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that contestants not chosen for a particular day have to stay backstage and don't get to watch the games that take place before they're chosen.


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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:32 pm 
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I've heard that, too, but one of the interviews with Holzhauer had Alex saying "look at that guy in the audience, he's thinking oh shit, I gotta play him next," so maybe they've eased up on the sequestration in recent years?

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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:53 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
But if you watched the guy play you knew he was going to bet what he did. It wasn't a surprise.


Ok, I see your point about the sharper wager on the part of the leader/librarian lady would've been a de minimis/zero dollar wager in that context.
Yeah, Holzhauer has said that he's surprisingly risk adverse; staying in the game is more important than winning a big pot. And thus his final Final Jeopardy wager maximized his chances to stay in the game / minimized, to the extent he could, the odds he'd be bounced from the game.


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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:10 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:21 pm 
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I hope Ken Jennings beats his ass.

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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:42 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:




That's outstanding.

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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:55 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:07 pm 
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James seems to be a very humble man and that it is just you know using "trash" talk in a good kind of kidding way is what I took out of it.

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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:41 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: James Holzhauer
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:46 pm 
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Passepartout wrote:
James seems to be a very humble man and that it is just you know using "trash" talk in a good kind of kidding way is what I took out of it.


Yeah. Nerd trash talk. Very exciting.


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