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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:02 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
Kawhi is Radio mixed with Forest Gump.

And he’s better than every NBA player since Mike.


No he isn't. Nice trolling effort.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:04 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Duncan wasn't better than LeBron or Kobe. This is Kawhi's first season as the best player in the league and he already needs a vacation.


I'd take Duncan over either. Especially Kobe and the record backs it up.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:06 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
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You are crazy or drunk...or perhaps both.

No. What’s crazy is the idea that Kobe or LeBron is better than Kawhi. Defense matters. When you pretend it doesn’t you need another All NBA player to win a title. Kawhis won 2 without one. LeBron and Kobe have won 0 combined.

Instead of questioning if I’m crazy I’d suggest questioning the media you follow that told you both players were much better than they ever were.

I'd say if anything the same media has also given Kawhi loads more passes than the likes of Lebron, Durant, Steph, and even Harden. Exhibit A would be the very thing this thread is based on, as any of those guys would be ripped from pillar to post for taking it as easy he has in the regular season, even if they had a chronic condition. The stuff he's pulled on San Antonio and in free agency is arguably shadier than both Lebron to Miami and Durant to Golden State yet he's received a fraction of the widespread criticism those two faced (outside of Spurs fans, who no one cares about, and Lakers fans, who everyone else enjoys laughing at). He was the best player on the court or even on his team for maybe 2-3 games max in the finals, yet doesn't get held to the same standard that Lebron, Curry, and Durant have been when they've had similar underwhelming performances in the finals.

I actually like Kawhi more than any of these guys, but I'd say if anything he's gotten a lot more of the perks of being mentioned as a superstar without anywhere near the kind of backlash or criticism that comes when one doesn't live up to those standards usually associated with that status.


There is a lot of truth in there.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:12 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Duncan wasn't better than LeBron or Kobe. This is Kawhi's first season as the best player in the league and he already needs a vacation.


I'd take Duncan over either. Especially Kobe and the record backs it up.


There are so many Kobe haters here. Apparently "I ALONE" truly appreciates his greatness.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:15 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
RFDC wrote:
You are crazy or drunk...or perhaps both.

No. What’s crazy is the idea that Kobe or LeBron is better than Kawhi. Defense matters. When you pretend it doesn’t you need another All NBA player to win a title. Kawhis won 2 without one. LeBron and Kobe have won 0 combined.

Instead of questioning if I’m crazy I’d suggest questioning the media you follow that told you both players were much better than they ever were.

I'd say if anything the same media has also given Kawhi loads more passes than the likes of Lebron, Durant, Steph, and even Harden. Exhibit A would be the very thing this thread is based on, as any of those guys would be ripped from pillar to post for taking it as easy he has in the regular season, even if they had a chronic condition. The stuff he's pulled on San Antonio and in free agency is arguably shadier than both Lebron to Miami and Durant to Golden State yet he's received a fraction of the widespread criticism those two faced (outside of Spurs fans, who no one cares about, and Lakers fans, who everyone else enjoys laughing at). He was the best player on the court or even on his team for maybe 2-3 games max in the finals, yet doesn't get held to the same standard that Lebron, Curry, and Durant have been when they've had similar underwhelming performances in the finals.

I actually like Kawhi more than any of these guys, but I'd say if anything he's gotten a lot more of the perks of being mentioned as a superstar without anywhere near the kind of backlash or criticism that comes when one doesn't live up to those standards usually associated with that status.

Well said. It isn't that LeBron and Durant are horrible. It's that every single NBA player is horrible.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:55 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
RFDC wrote:
You are crazy or drunk...or perhaps both.

No. What’s crazy is the idea that Kobe or LeBron is better than Kawhi. Defense matters. When you pretend it doesn’t you need another All NBA player to win a title. Kawhis won 2 without one. LeBron and Kobe have won 0 combined.

Instead of questioning if I’m crazy I’d suggest questioning the media you follow that told you both players were much better than they ever were.

I'd say if anything the same media has also given Kawhi loads more passes than the likes of Lebron, Durant, Steph, and even Harden. Exhibit A would be the very thing this thread is based on, as any of those guys would be ripped from pillar to post for taking it as easy he has in the regular season, even if they had a chronic condition. The stuff he's pulled on San Antonio and in free agency is arguably shadier than both Lebron to Miami and Durant to Golden State yet he's received a fraction of the widespread criticism those two faced (outside of Spurs fans, who no one cares about, and Lakers fans, who everyone else enjoys laughing at). He was the best player on the court or even on his team for maybe 2-3 games max in the finals, yet doesn't get held to the same standard that Lebron, Curry, and Durant have been when they've had similar underwhelming performances in the finals.

I actually like Kawhi more than any of these guys, but I'd say if anything he's gotten a lot more of the perks of being mentioned as a superstar without anywhere near the kind of backlash or criticism that comes when one doesn't live up to those standards usually associated with that status.

I don't think this is remotely accurate. LeBron's only real Finals criticism came in 2011 and he was significantly worse than Kawhi was in his Finals appearance. The media has happily doled out excuses for every other Finals loss.

It's also ridiculous to call Kawhi's 2019 Finals underwhelming unless you consider him the greatest player of all time.

Steph never receives media criticism. Durant brings any and all criticism he receives on himself with all his numerous ridiculous interviews. Don't tell me you didn't reluctantly put Harden in that group too, even you think he's a joke.

Kawhi has received a lot of criticism for how he handled the SA exit and even more criticism for the load management nonsense. Some people were justifying it after he won the Finals but the criticism resurfaced again last night and today after he did it again in the 5th game of the season.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:32 pm 
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Zeph are you sticking with the take that Kawhi isn’t getting a lot of criticism for the load management bullshit?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:09 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:17 am 
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[quote="Terry's Peeps"]

I get taking nights off mid to late season but after 7 or 8 games it is a joke. Bad business for the NBA.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:52 am 
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Not a big deal.

ESPN crying because the toy they invested billions to broadcast isn’t operating exactly the way they want is completely laughable. EVERY FUCKING SHOW TALKED ABOUT LOAD MANAGEMENT YESTERDAY. Pathetic.

Playoff basketball and championships. That’s the most important part of the league.

Not your early November Wednesday night game.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:01 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
I don't think this is remotely accurate. LeBron's only real Finals criticism came in 2011 and he was significantly worse than Kawhi was in his Finals appearance. The media has happily doled out excuses for every other Finals loss.

It's also ridiculous to call Kawhi's 2019 Finals underwhelming unless you consider him the greatest player of all time.

Steph never receives media criticism. Durant brings any and all criticism he receives on himself with all his numerous ridiculous interviews. Don't tell me you didn't reluctantly put Harden in that group too, even you think he's a joke.

Kawhi has received a lot of criticism for how he handled the SA exit and even more criticism for the load management nonsense. Some people were justifying it after he won the Finals but the criticism resurfaced again last night and today after he did it again in the 5th game of the season.

I disagree with pretty much all of this. As a preface, let me note that I don't think any of the things I say about these players is necessarily the dominant narrative, but that the backlash they've received has been far harsher and more vocal in the media than anything Leonard's done up to this point. My point isn't that those guys don't receive praise, but that they've received far more criticism than Leonard, at least until now.

Lebron and Steph have been criticized for finals they've actually won, never mind the series they lost. Two of the most popular narratives are that Lebron is so unclutch he had to be saved by Allen and Irving for his two most recent finals wins, and Steph somehow has earned a reputation of playing worse in the finals and not being good enough to win finals MVP despite averaging better stats in the finals than the regular season.

Durant, even after his titles, still catches more heat for losing 3-1 to the Warriors than Kawhi ever did for losing to that same Thunder team as the best player on a 67-win Spurs team in 2016. And Harden's a joke of course, but can you imagine how much more hated he'd be if his disgusting game on the court was complemented by any of the things Leonard's done? None of this even gets into the amount of criticism they also tend to receive on a game-by-game basis in the postseason, which I think the media has also largely not directed at Kawhi up to this point ("he's tired because of his injury/workload in the regular season" is quite a bit different and more sympathetic than "he just didn't show up").

I likewise don't feel like Leonard caught anywhere near the amount of criticism any of those star players would have if they had the kind of divorce he had with San Antonio. Hell, it wasn't just glossed over or justified when Toronto won the title, but actually celebrated because Durant's injury somehow revealed a deep truth about players taking their health seriously or something, regardless of it having little to do with Leonard's previous situation. As I said in my original post, I really didn't see anywhere near as many people outraged about the San Antonio situation as I'd expect from another franchise or star player.

As for the current situation, I think it's kind of much ado about nothing. It's something that allows the network to talk about early season NBA when usually nothing really matters. Old players like MJU can huff and puff about how much tougher they were/how soft this generation is, and as JBills notes, it's great content for the dozens of talking head segments that exist. But even if you do want to say that the criticisms Kawhi has been getting have teeth though, I'd counter that this is the first time he's receiving that kind of widespread backlash that comes with being regarded as a superstar, especially compared to the treatment the guys I mentioned have been getting for years.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:07 am 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Steph somehow has earned a reputation of playing worse in the finals and not being good enough to win finals MVP despite averaging better stats in the finals than the regular season.

Are you seriously suggesting that Steph has received criticism for this on par with the criticism Kawhi is facing on load management? That's absurd. I don't even agree that Steph has earned anything close to the reputation you're suggesting, and it's certainly nowhere close in scope to the load management criticism.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:18 am 
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There's talk of the NBA moving to a reduced game schedule (75 games?) to coincide with the 75th season of the NBA. Dunno if they could do it in the middle of a CBA. Morey's 60 game season or 58 game season (every team plays every other team twice) proposal is probably too drastic a change. Maybe 75 games + move the start of the season to the beginning of October.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:22 am 
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Hussra wrote:
There's talk of the NBA moving to a reduced game schedule (75 games?) to coincide with the 75th season of the NBA. Dunno if they could do it in the middle of a CBA. Morey's 60 game season or 58 game season (every team plays every other team twice) proposal is probably too drastic a change. Maybe 75 games + move the start of the season to the beginning of October.

So stupid. World class athletes paid millions of dollars. Play the games you are scheduled like guys have for years. Bunch of fucking pussies

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:25 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Steph somehow has earned a reputation of playing worse in the finals and not being good enough to win finals MVP despite averaging better stats in the finals than the regular season.

Are you seriously suggesting that Steph has received criticism for this on par with the criticism Kawhi is facing on load management? That's absurd. I don't even agree that Steph has earned anything close to the reputation you're suggesting, and it's certainly nowhere close in scope to the load management criticism.

I'm not comparing the criticism of the two incidents but the extent of criticism they've faced in the past. I've long hated Steph and felt like he got too much praise from the media for a while, but I feel like they stopped handling him with kid gloves a few years ago now. Heck before he got injured this year, the hot take that he's not good enough to carry a team and like Draymond has always been overrated was starting.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:29 am 
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These guy have destroyed their legs by playing year round basketball since they were 8. Something player 20-30 years ago did not do a nearly the same level. Even Lebron played high school football until Senior year.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:31 am 
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RFDC wrote:
Hussra wrote:
There's talk of the NBA moving to a reduced game schedule (75 games?) to coincide with the 75th season of the NBA. Dunno if they could do it in the middle of a CBA. Morey's 60 game season or 58 game season (every team plays every other team twice) proposal is probably too drastic a change. Maybe 75 games + move the start of the season to the beginning of October.

So stupid. World class athletes paid millions of dollars. Play the games you are scheduled like guys have for years. Bunch of fucking pussies


You tell 'em, Boomer!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:33 am 
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conns7901 wrote:
These guy have destroyed their legs by playing year round basketball since they were 8. Something player 20-30 years ago did not do a nearly the same level. Even Lebron played high school football until Senior year.

Poor things...played year around. What a struggle

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:40 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:46 am 
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Today’s basketball players are pussies . This is known.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:06 am 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Today’s basketball players are pussies . This is known.


I bet u could beat one up even!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:08 am 
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One thing that's kind of struck me about this affair is that it's another illustration of how detached the sports media actually is from sports fans. I completely understand and am somewhat on board with the "how's it get you closer to a championship?" view of the people in favor of load management; I can definitely tolerate arguments that load management is Rational and Good more than I can for arguments that superteams are Rational and Good. Unfortunately though a lot of the people taking that side of argument have the typical NBA writer mentality that anyone annoyed about not being able to see Kawhi or another star due to load management just doesn't get it (or even worse, that it's actually the fans' fault because they're too judgmental about rings and titles above all else, despite the fact that 99% of the discourse about greatness is driven by the media and not the fans anyway).

What's worse to me though is how skewed the perspective is on the part of the people who are supposed to be anti-load management. Kornheiser a few days ago went on a long rant about how pissed off he'd be if he ran ESPN when the Clippers said Leonard was sitting, and I've noticed much of the talk about this has centered on the league and the networks. The thing I don't get is how that's the example you immediately go to instead of the paying fan, which is the main party getting screwed in this scenario. I get that any intervention by the league would ostensibly be for the benefit of the fan, but I don't get why we immediately have to center the networks and the maximization of their contract value when something like this occurs. It strikes me as another case of the meatballs who are central to the economic success of the league simply being alien to the majority of the NBA commentariat.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:00 pm 
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Agree with that perspective Zeph. It's part of why I don't invest a lot in a league I used to love to watch.

Here's some lady blabbing and her main point was "this impacts games that are nationally televised and the ratings", but she does throw the fans in at the end.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:07 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
One thing that's kind of struck me about this affair is that it's another illustration of how detached the sports media actually is from sports fans. I completely understand and am somewhat on board with the "how's it get you closer to a championship?" view of the people in favor of load management; I can definitely tolerate arguments that load management is Rational and Good more than I can for arguments that superteams are Rational and Good. Unfortunately though a lot of the people taking that side of argument have the typical NBA writer mentality that anyone annoyed about not being able to see Kawhi or another star due to load management just doesn't get it (or even worse, that it's actually the fans' fault because they're too judgmental about rings and titles above all else, despite the fact that 99% of the discourse about greatness is driven by the media and not the fans anyway).

What's worse to me though is how skewed the perspective is on the part of the people who are supposed to be anti-load management. Kornheiser a few days ago went on a long rant about how pissed off he'd be if he ran ESPN when the Clippers said Leonard was sitting, and I've noticed much of the talk about this has centered on the league and the networks. The thing I don't get is how that's the example you immediately go to instead of the paying fan, which is the main party getting screwed in this scenario. I get that any intervention by the league would ostensibly be for the benefit of the fan, but I don't get why we immediately have to center the networks and the maximization of their contract value when something like this occurs. It strikes me as another case of the meatballs who are central to the economic success of the league simply being alien to the majority of the NBA commentariat.



We seem to have lost the plot. Sports are entertainment. Championships really aren't the be all, end all. This is closely related to the walk-oriented offense in baseball.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:16 pm 
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Sports are def entertainment, but basketball is the one sport where championships seem to matter more than anything else as far as legacy goes.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:29 pm 
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I will say the NBA should implement some sort of insurance/reimbursement option if a certain player decides not to play the game a fan bought tickets for.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:34 pm 
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Jbi11s wrote:
Sports are def entertainment, but basketball is the one sport where championships seem to matter more than anything else as far as legacy goes.
He has his championship though. It really only is used against people if they never get one.

I mean, people were ready to crown LeBron as the GOAT and he was still 3 titles behind Jordan simply because, um, rebounds or something.

I think the most interesting rule would be that if the league determines you are doing "load management" that you have to choose to either miss the next 5 games like an injured list or you have to miss 1.5 home games for every road game you sat out in the season.

I'm going to guess that there would be a lot less load management if your season ticket holders didn't see you 25% of the time.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:35 pm 
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Jbi11s wrote:
Sports are def entertainment, but basketball is the one sport where championships seem to matter more than anything else as far as legacy goes.



There's a disconnect there though, in that more than any other league the NBA has chosen to promote players over teams. And now I go to or turn on a game to see a promoted player and I'm told he's not playing for the good of the team.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:37 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
One thing that's kind of struck me about this affair is that it's another illustration of how detached the sports media actually is from sports fans. I completely understand and am somewhat on board with the "how's it get you closer to a championship?" view of the people in favor of load management; I can definitely tolerate arguments that load management is Rational and Good more than I can for arguments that superteams are Rational and Good. Unfortunately though a lot of the people taking that side of argument have the typical NBA writer mentality that anyone annoyed about not being able to see Kawhi or another star due to load management just doesn't get it (or even worse, that it's actually the fans' fault because they're too judgmental about rings and titles above all else, despite the fact that 99% of the discourse about greatness is driven by the media and not the fans anyway).

What's worse to me though is how skewed the perspective is on the part of the people who are supposed to be anti-load management. Kornheiser a few days ago went on a long rant about how pissed off he'd be if he ran ESPN when the Clippers said Leonard was sitting, and I've noticed much of the talk about this has centered on the league and the networks. The thing I don't get is how that's the example you immediately go to instead of the paying fan, which is the main party getting screwed in this scenario. I get that any intervention by the league would ostensibly be for the benefit of the fan, but I don't get why we immediately have to center the networks and the maximization of their contract value when something like this occurs. It strikes me as another case of the meatballs who are central to the economic success of the league simply being alien to the majority of the NBA commentariat.



We seem to have lost the plot. Sports are entertainment. Championships really aren't the be all, end all. This is closely related to the walk-oriented offense in baseball.
Good to see you view baseball the same as football now!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
Sports are def entertainment, but basketball is the one sport where championships seem to matter more than anything else as far as legacy goes.
He has his championship though. It really only is used against people if they never get one.

I mean, people were ready to crown LeBron as the GOAT and he was still 3 titles behind Jordan simply because, um, rebounds or something.

I think the most interesting rule would be that if the league determines you are doing "load management" that you have to choose to either miss the next 5 games like an injured list or you have to miss 1.5 home games for every road game you sat out in the season.

I'm going to guess that there would be a lot less load management if your season ticket holders didn't see you 25% of the time.


They’ll just be put in the game for a minute to avoid penalties.

Also, maybe Kawhi wants more championships.

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