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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:59 am 
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The costs have really become breathtaking. Full freight at Vanderbilt is now $76k per year. That's the other aspect that colleges figured out (along with the pharmaceutical companies). Why set the MSRP at $20k for everyone when some families can afford $76k? Colleges can always lower the price for poorer students, but if they set the MSRP at $20k, they're leaving money on the table. Better to set MSRP as high as possible and adjust downward.

Maybe that's the way prices for everything will be set in the future. Want to buy a gallon of milk? Ok, let's see your tax returns to determine what you will pay. $10 for you, $1 for the other guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:05 am 
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denisdman wrote:
It is sad, and there is no easy answers, like healthcare. I can’t believe I am paying about $200k for my daughter to attend IU. I have no clue how folks on median incomes could ever afford this, and it saddens me greatly. The current system reinforces inequality because kids like mine already have inherent advantages, and then they will not be burdened like lower income families. I would absolutely be willing to pay more taxes to boost education and improve the entire system.



Either you haven't said too much publicly or I missed it but that is fine. Clearly, you have done well and are smart financially so you can obviously afford 50K per year or you would not do it. That aside have you really had a frank talk with daughter about school choice and major? I assume you did but I am not sure how many do.

Artificially inflated costs coupled with unrealistic dreams and expectations play huge parts of this. Full disclosure tuition for my dependents is a benefit of my employment so I do not worry too closely about this. My siblings have issues handing it from different levels of financial health.

One question I am left with is why don't they (the lenders) do a much more stringent job approving these loans or not? Demanding co-signers or using some sort of actuary tables to predict future earnings by majors?

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:09 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
One Post wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Ok. Keep believing that 2/3rd’s of jobs in this country require a college degree to do them and then also keep wondering why this student debt problem will never get solved.


Keep believing that I stated that 2/3rds of the jobs in this country require a college degree and and then also keep wondering why people think you are a dipshit that can’t read.

I don't wonder that because people don't think that. Replace college degree with secondary education and my post is accurate and yours is still comically stupid.


Let’s try this, just use the quote function and show where I posted that 2/3rds of jobs require a college degree. Use the quote function please.


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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:10 am 
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pittmike wrote:
One question I am left with is why don't they (the lenders) do a much more stringent job approving these loans or not? Demanding co-signers or using some sort of actuary tables to predict future earnings by majors?


we have just explained this. the govt guarantees the lender gets paid and the debtor cannot escape the debt via bankruptcy. its the biggest scam ever invented. The only person that gets screwed is the dope that agrees to the con. and then the kind people of our society say, "they should have known better" and "decisions have consequences".

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:11 am 
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C'mon OnePost. FF can read like a champ. It's the comprehension that he struggles with. :wink:


I'm lucky I was able to pay off my student loans when I did. I lived at home for a while, then had roommates so my expenses were down. I was cutting checks for $1000, sometimes $1500 a month to cover TWO different loans. I spent nearly $50K going to MSU in Bozeman for two years and didn't even graduate. Go figure.

There really is no easy way to go about it. The cost of college is really insane.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:16 am 
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pittmike wrote:
denisdman wrote:
It is sad, and there is no easy answers, like healthcare. I can’t believe I am paying about $200k for my daughter to attend IU. I have no clue how folks on median incomes could ever afford this, and it saddens me greatly. The current system reinforces inequality because kids like mine already have inherent advantages, and then they will not be burdened like lower income families. I would absolutely be willing to pay more taxes to boost education and improve the entire system.



Either you haven't said too much publicly or I missed it but that is fine. Clearly, you have done well and are smart financially so you can obviously afford 50K per year or you would not do it. That aside have you really had a frank talk with daughter about school choice and major? I assume you did but I am not sure how many do.

Artificially inflated costs coupled with unrealistic dreams and expectations play huge parts of this. Full disclosure tuition for my dependents is a benefit of my employment so I do not worry too closely about this. My siblings have issues handing it from different levels of financial health.

One question I am left with is why don't they (the lenders) do a much more stringent job approving these loans or not? Demanding co-signers or using some sort of actuary tables to predict future earnings by majors?


I wanted my kids to go to major, well known universities. I steered them away from smaller schools. I was already paying a fairly high annual tuition for private school. I started saving when they were born and had projected a total cost of their education at birth to be $120k each. Obviously I was wrong, so I have had to bank more money to get to the $200k. But it’s not an issue at all.

The government is the lender. The rules allow for just about anyone to qualify. If they applied regular underwriting standards, the poor would never be granted credit. It’s all a big scam, and these things cannot be relieved in bankruptcy like other debts.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:17 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
pittmike wrote:
One question I am left with is why don't they (the lenders) do a much more stringent job approving these loans or not? Demanding co-signers or using some sort of actuary tables to predict future earnings by majors?


we have just explained this. the govt guarantees the lender gets paid and the debtor cannot escape the debt via bankruptcy. its the biggest scam ever invented. The only person that gets screwed is the dope that agrees to the con. and then the kind people of our society say, "they should have known better" and "decisions have consequences".


Yup yup yup, sorry I answered before I read your post. Spot on.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:18 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Sorry I am late to this thread. The original comment from Spiral about this being like the housing crisis is very true. We are burdening our future leaders with debt that hampers their ability to buy a house, start a family, and mature in the way generations before them have.

When you go to college, you are already behind in starting a career and generating wealth. The trade off is you increase your long term earnings potential, so it’s worth that initial sacrifice. But when folks are graduating with six figure debts, you are burying these folks even further.

As I have said over the years, our education is the best place to reduce income inequality. It starts in pre-K with teaching kids to read and stretches all the way past high school with equipping folks with skills that employers need (not just college education but technical/trade skills for those not going to college).

The cost of college has risen for two main reasons:

1) states like IL have cut allocations to universities.
2) colleges have spent way too much on fancy campuses and administration.

It is sad, and there is no easy answers, like healthcare. I can’t believe I am paying about $200k for my daughter to attend IU. I have no clue how folks on median incomes could ever afford this, and it saddens me greatly. The current system reinforces inequality because kids like mine already have inherent advantages, and then they will not be burdened like lower income families. I would absolutely be willing to pay more taxes to boost education and improve the entire system.


This is a wonderful post. Education is one of the great equalizers in America and has always been. Over the past 60 years it has become harder and harder for people in poverty or near poverty to access quality education at all levels.

We are moving faster and faster each day into a knowledge/skills based world economy, yet we are making it harder and harder to acquire the knowledge and skills that will be required to succeed in that economy. It’s dumb.


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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:20 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
C'mon OnePost. FF can read like a champ. It's the comprehension that he struggles with. :wink:


I'm lucky I was able to pay off my student loans when I did. I lived at home for a while, then had roommates so my expenses were down. I was cutting checks for $1000, sometimes $1500 a month to cover TWO different loans. I spent nearly $50K going to MSU in Bozeman for two years and didn't even graduate. Go figure.

There really is no easy way to go about it. The cost of college is really insane.


I had about 175k of loans all in after grad school. I don’t regret my education at all, it was well worth it, but there were some days looking at those loan balances that I just wanted to barf. It seemed insurmountable.


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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:23 am 
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It was a wonderful feeling getting those paid off. It would have been a huge burden now with a kid and a wife and a house. I was lucky I had a job and living situation that allowed me to get those balances to zero.

One Post wrote:
We are moving faster and faster each day into a knowledge/skills based world economy, yet we are making it harder and harder to acquire the knowledge and skills that will be required to succeed in that economy. It’s dumb.
And even when kinds are in those "good" schools, we make it harder by doing things like common core math, eliminating cursive writing, and doing everything on tablets and laptops.

I'm not saying cursive writing is needed for this day and age, but there is something about putting the pen to paper that is going to help kids out down the road as they learn more and more for their job or trade. Its the process of learning and basically teaching kids how to learn.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:26 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
pittmike wrote:
One question I am left with is why don't they (the lenders) do a much more stringent job approving these loans or not? Demanding co-signers or using some sort of actuary tables to predict future earnings by majors?


we have just explained this. the govt guarantees the lender gets paid and the debtor cannot escape the debt via bankruptcy. its the biggest scam ever invented. The only person that gets screwed is the dope that agrees to the con. and then the kind people of our society say, "they should have known better" and "decisions have consequences".


Yup yup yup, sorry I answered before I read your post. Spot on.


smh

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:30 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Sorry I am late to this thread. The original comment from Spiral about this being like the housing crisis is very true. We are burdening our future leaders with debt that hampers their ability to buy a house, start a family, and mature in the way generations before them have.

When you go to college, you are already behind in starting a career and generating wealth. The trade off is you increase your long term earnings potential, so it’s worth that initial sacrifice. But when folks are graduating with six figure debts, you are burying these folks even further.

As I have said over the years, our education is the best place to reduce income inequality. It starts in pre-K with teaching kids to read and stretches all the way past high school with equipping folks with skills that employers need (not just college education but technical/trade skills for those not going to college).

The cost of college has risen for two main reasons:

1) states like IL have cut allocations to universities.
2) colleges have spent way too much on fancy campuses and administration.

It is sad, and there is no easy answers, like healthcare. I can’t believe I am paying about $200k for my daughter to attend IU. I have no clue how folks on median incomes could ever afford this, and it saddens me greatly. The current system reinforces inequality because kids like mine already have inherent advantages, and then they will not be burdened like lower income families. I would absolutely be willing to pay more taxes to boost education and improve the entire system.


The bolded part really hits home. I delayed entry into the work force by going to law school. I went to law school because I couldn't immediately find a job out of college. I took out loans because I couldn't afford tuition on my own.

I will own that part of the problem was my fault by getting an arguably non-marketable degree in undergrad, and my ignorance of the importance of establishing a network. But I also graduated undergrad in 2008 during the fall out of the housing crisis. I was aimless.

Six years out of law school, I have a job, a house, and two kids. At the time I graduated law school my total student loan debt was a little over $80,000. For the first year or two out, I was on an income based repayment plan which wasn't enough to cover the principal on the loans. When I went off the income based repayment plan the interest capitalized and I owed closed to $90,000. That was a real system shock.

Right now I have about $35,000 left to pay on my student loans. Last year my wife and I used $30,000 that she inherited from her grandfather to pay down a chunk of my debt. I imagine Deni$ would say we were better off investing that money and he's probably right. But I am so motivated to pay off the debt because writing that check each month is stating to eat at my sanity.

I am eleven years post-undergrad. I only have a house because my parents contributed to the down payment. I got my first job out of law school because the boss was a family member. We pay far below market rate for childcare because my wife's parents are able to watch our kids while we are at work. I have very little in the way of savings compared to my parents when they were my age. I have what I have in part because I was able to lean on connections. MANY are not anywhere near as fortunate is I am.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:34 am 
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With you guys discussing these ominous costs I was curious so I just did a quick Google search for average student loan payment in US. The number appears to be between 200-300 a month and usually 280. Sure it sucks but if you have a good job because of it and comparing to other bills is it that horrible?

I get the the bigger problem are under and un employed after school or similar situations. Overall though is it being over hyped in this election cycle?

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:38 am 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Sorry I am late to this thread. The original comment from Spiral about this being like the housing crisis is very true. We are burdening our future leaders with debt that hampers their ability to buy a house, start a family, and mature in the way generations before them have.

When you go to college, you are already behind in starting a career and generating wealth. The trade off is you increase your long term earnings potential, so it’s worth that initial sacrifice. But when folks are graduating with six figure debts, you are burying these folks even further.

As I have said over the years, our education is the best place to reduce income inequality. It starts in pre-K with teaching kids to read and stretches all the way past high school with equipping folks with skills that employers need (not just college education but technical/trade skills for those not going to college).

The cost of college has risen for two main reasons:

1) states like IL have cut allocations to universities.
2) colleges have spent way too much on fancy campuses and administration.

It is sad, and there is no easy answers, like healthcare. I can’t believe I am paying about $200k for my daughter to attend IU. I have no clue how folks on median incomes could ever afford this, and it saddens me greatly. The current system reinforces inequality because kids like mine already have inherent advantages, and then they will not be burdened like lower income families. I would absolutely be willing to pay more taxes to boost education and improve the entire system.


The bolded part really hits home. I delayed entry into the work force by going to law school. I went to law school because I couldn't immediately find a job out of college. I took out loans because I couldn't afford tuition on my own.

I will own that part of the problem was my fault by getting an arguably non-marketable degree in undergrad, and my ignorance of the importance of establishing a network. But I also graduated undergrad in 2008 during the fall out of the housing crisis. I was aimless.

Six years out of law school, I have a job, a house, and two kids. At the time I graduated law school my total student loan debt was a little over $80,000. For the first year or two out, I was on an income based repayment plan which wasn't enough to cover the principal on the loans. When I went off the income based repayment plan the interest capitalized and I owed closed to $90,000. That was a real system shock.

Right now I have about $35,000 left to pay on my student loans. Last year my wife and I used $30,000 that she inherited from her grandfather to pay down a chunk of my debt. I imagine Deni$ would say we were better off investing that money and he's probably right. But I am so motivated to pay off the debt because writing that check each month is stating to eat at my sanity.

I am eleven years post-undergrad. I only have a house because my parents contributed to the down payment. I got my first job out of law school because the boss was a family member. We pay far below market rate for childcare because my wife's parents are able to watch our kids while we are at work. I have very little in the way of savings compared to my parents when they were my age. I have what I have in part because I was able to lean on connections. MANY are not anywhere near as fortunate is I am.


I did the same thing. Often what is the fiscally/financially correct decision is at odds with what is the decision that we want to make based on an emotional or psychological plane. I don't regret it for a second, at the time I valued my psychological security needs over the correct financial decision. I haven't thought twice about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:39 am 
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On the surface, $280 is not horrible.

But with an entry level salary, on top of rent/mortgage, car payment, groceries, other utilities, daycare, and craft beer, it becomes tougher and tougher to make those payments.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:40 am 
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I read somewhere that some student loans are at 7% innerest? That's fucking nuts. I would definitely pay that back. Nowhere can you find a guaranteed 7% investment return.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:41 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
On the surface, $280 is not horrible.

But with an entry level salary, on top of rent/mortgage, car payment, groceries, other utilities, daycare, and craft beer, it becomes tougher and tougher to make those payments.


what does pot cost/week?

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:42 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
I read somewhere that some student loans are at 7% innerest? That's fucking nuts. I would definitely pay that back. Nowhere can you find a guaranteed 7% investment return.


Mine are 6.25%

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:43 am 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
I read somewhere that some student loans are at 7% innerest? That's fucking nuts. I would definitely pay that back. Nowhere can you find a guaranteed 7% investment return.


Mine are 6.25%


meanwhile on a bank CD you'd get 0.000625%

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:51 am 
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Kudos to the board for having a rational, intelligent discussion on a very important topic. I love it.

Spiral I feel ya. Frank, great job.

And the problem is, right now, the costs are much higher than we experienced, and it gets worse each year. Sad.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:54 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Kudos to the board for having a rational, intelligent discussion on a very important topic. I love it.

Spiral I feel ya. Frank, great job.

And the problem is, right now, the costs are much higher than we experienced, and it gets worse each year. Sad.


Obviously the whole fucking thing is going to collapse here at some point.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:55 am 
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One Post wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Sorry I am late to this thread. The original comment from Spiral about this being like the housing crisis is very true. We are burdening our future leaders with debt that hampers their ability to buy a house, start a family, and mature in the way generations before them have.

When you go to college, you are already behind in starting a career and generating wealth. The trade off is you increase your long term earnings potential, so it’s worth that initial sacrifice. But when folks are graduating with six figure debts, you are burying these folks even further.

As I have said over the years, our education is the best place to reduce income inequality. It starts in pre-K with teaching kids to read and stretches all the way past high school with equipping folks with skills that employers need (not just college education but technical/trade skills for those not going to college).

The cost of college has risen for two main reasons:

1) states like IL have cut allocations to universities.
2) colleges have spent way too much on fancy campuses and administration.

It is sad, and there is no easy answers, like healthcare. I can’t believe I am paying about $200k for my daughter to attend IU. I have no clue how folks on median incomes could ever afford this, and it saddens me greatly. The current system reinforces inequality because kids like mine already have inherent advantages, and then they will not be burdened like lower income families. I would absolutely be willing to pay more taxes to boost education and improve the entire system.


This is a wonderful post. Education is one of the great equalizers in America and has always been. Over the past 60 years it has become harder and harder for people in poverty or near poverty to access quality education at all levels.

We are moving faster and faster each day into a knowledge/skills based world economy, yet we are making it harder and harder to acquire the knowledge and skills that will be required to succeed in that economy. It’s dumb.


I know that first hand. My back story is from a single mother household at the very bottom rung of the middle class. There are others who were much worse off, so I don’t want overstate my childhood income situation, but it was not good.

I know what it’s like to use education to improve my situation. Having six siblings, I also see the wide divergence for those who went to school and those that didn’t as well as one who received a strong technical education in the automotive field and now owns two shops of his own.

If you followed my posts over the years, you know I care deeply about education. Rick and I have debated quite a bit as we have different feelings on the matter but both want the same outcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:56 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Kudos to the board for having a rational, intelligent discussion on a very important topic. I love it.

Spiral I feel ya. Frank, great job.

And the problem is, right now, the costs are much higher than we experienced, and it gets worse each year. Sad.


Obviously the whole fucking thing is going to collapse here at some point.


That’s why the housing crisis analogy is accurate. It pisses me off. We all see it coming.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:00 am 
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denisdman wrote:
If you followed my posts over the years, you know I care deeply about education. Rick and I have debated quite a bit as we have different feelings on the matter but both want the same outcome.
It's not just edumacation, it has to be the right education.

What the fuck are you going to do with a major like "great books"? Unless you go to law school, teaching, or you're that hot chick from Pawn Stars, you're going to end up in sales or some mundane office job for $30K a year.

Nothing wrong with a trade- like your automotive field sibling- as secondary education either.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:06 am 
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One Post wrote:
This is a wonderful post. Education is one of the great equalizers in America and has always been. Over the past 60 years it has become harder and harder for people in poverty or near poverty to access quality education at all levels.

We are moving faster and faster each day into a knowledge/skills based world economy, yet we are making it harder and harder to acquire the knowledge and skills that will be required to succeed in that economy. It’s dumb.


It's not dumb, it is by design. More people are getting educated. Educated people are dangerous. In order to sufficiently cow an increasingly educated population we saddle them with non-dischargable debt so they'll be too focused on paying it off to give a shit about what is happening around them.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:12 am 
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There's a lot of good points coming at this from conservative and liberal minds.

Education (like Healthcare) has become big business, which of course, is why our Federal Government has joined in to ruin it. Education **shouldn't** be as expensive as it is, but that's what it's become.

While there's plenty of fault with the banks, government, and educational institutions....individuals carry their shame. Community college is affordable. National Guard, Reserves, Military....all very viable options to help offset the costs. Working as a student (I did) also should be a must.

Many consumers of education have been taken advantage of, which is sad, but at the same time....racking up 30K in debt a year should be a warning sign for anyone...it's a bad idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:13 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
On the surface, $280 is not horrible.

But with an entry level salary, on top of rent/mortgage, car payment, groceries, other utilities, daycare, and craft beer, it becomes tougher and tougher to make those payments.


Just a couple examples of where money is at where people cannot see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:14 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Kudos to the board for having a rational, intelligent discussion on a very important topic. I love it.

Spiral I feel ya. Frank, great job.

And the problem is, right now, the costs are much higher than we experienced, and it gets worse each year. Sad.


It is because it is bipartisan and the color involved is green.

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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:18 am 
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wdelaney72 wrote:
There's a lot of good points coming at this from conservative and liberal minds.

Education (like Healthcare) has become big business, which of course, is why our Federal Government has joined in to ruin it. Education **shouldn't** be as expensive as it is, but that's what it's become.

While there's plenty of fault with the banks, government, and educational institutions....individuals carry their shame. Community college is affordable. National Guard, Reserves, Military....all very viable options to help offset the costs. Working as a student (I did) also should be a must.

Many consumers of education have been taken advantage of, which is sad, but at the same time....racking up 30K in debt a year should be a warning sign for anyone...it's a bad idea.


Maybe. I think it would make people value their education a bit more. I'm shocked at the amount of people that don't give a shit or "can't".


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 Post subject: Re: Student Loans
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:23 am 
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wdelaney72 wrote:
There's a lot of good points coming at this from conservative and liberal minds.

Education (like Healthcare) has become big business, which of course, is why our Federal Government has joined in to ruin it. Education **shouldn't** be as expensive as it is, but that's what it's become.

While there's plenty of fault with the banks, government, and educational institutions....individuals carry their shame. Community college is affordable. National Guard, Reserves, Military....all very viable options to help offset the costs. Working as a student (I did) also should be a must.

Many consumers of education have been taken advantage of, which is sad, but at the same time....racking up 30K in debt a year should be a warning sign for anyone...it's a bad idea.


The greatest trick the devil pulled was convincing MANY that Joe Six-Pack is to be held to an infinitely higher standard than banks, corporations, etc., when it comes to exercising Personal Responsibility™.

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