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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:58 pm 
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Are gun owners trying to identify as non-gun owners?

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:59 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:08 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Darkside wrote:
We're making a huge mistake with how we're classifying transgenders. It's real cute that we've raised our children over the last 40 years or so to tell them that they're all special, that however it is they feel is ok. Sometimes it's not ok.
This will eventually be classified as a mental illness. And coddling victims and not treating this mental illness as what it is has resulted is staggering suicide rates. By staggering its something like half of males and a third of transgender females have attempted suicide.
Once we stop playing like everyone is right and everyone's feelings are ok we'll learn that the dysmorphia is a symptom of another underlying illness that has a very high chance of resulting in suicide.
Peoples lives are at stake.
People die from not being treated.
Its preventable. But we won't prevent it because this society is becoming way too complacent in such matters.

And that's all I have to say about that
The problem with using suicide rates as a link to something being a mental illness is you can add a lot of things to the list of things that make it more likely. One of them is gun ownership. I don't think it means that gun owners have mental illness.

Are gun owners killing themselves at a rate of higher than 20%?
If I'm going to compare it I need to know what statistic you are citing here.

However, of course transgender people are going to have a high suicide rate. Gay people have a high suicide rate too. Pretty much any group that is rejected by so many parts of society will have trouble.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:10 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.
I'm pointing out the flaw in thinking that something being a factor in a higher suicide rate means that it is mental illness. I could have used sexual orientation but I think gun ownership was a better example.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:16 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.
I'm pointing out the flaw in thinking that something being a factor in a higher suicide rate means that it is mental illness. I could have used sexual orientation but I think gun ownership was a better example.

It's not. You're comparing two different mechanics here. You knew that too because in previous gun control arguments you've stated the true fact that gun owners are more likely to successfully commit suicide than non gun owners.
Were talking something like 47k suicides nationally, half of which are done with a gun. We're talking a gun population of nearly 400 million firearms. That's a very far cry from the 33% to 50% transgender suicide attempt rate.
Even for gays the rate is much much lower.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:17 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.
I'm pointing out the flaw in thinking that something being a factor in a higher suicide rate means that it is mental illness. I could have used sexual orientation but I think gun ownership was a better example.


We can't say they are mentally ill for certain, but we can be sure that it was mean people that drove all of these suicides due to ridicule. Sound logic.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:19 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.
I'm pointing out the flaw in thinking that something being a factor in a higher suicide rate means that it is mental illness. I could have used sexual orientation but I think gun ownership was a better example.

When you're talking a suicide attempt rate of 50% yeah you can go ahead and assume mental illness is a factor. We're not talking a 2 or 3% change from the non transgender numbers here. We're talking over a third to half the population. That's a major statistical outlier.

And back to my point, we could and should be treating this and saving lives by admitting what it really is. Instead we're trying to normalize it and fix it thru surgery and as a result a whole shitload of people are dying. It stops being cute when people die.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:20 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.
I'm pointing out the flaw in thinking that something being a factor in a higher suicide rate means that it is mental illness. I could have used sexual orientation but I think gun ownership was a better example.

When you're talking a suicide attempt rate of 50% yeah you can go ahead and assume mental illness is a factor. We're not talking a 2 or 3% change from the non transgender numbers here. We're talking over a third to half the population. That's a major statistical outlier.

And back to my point, we could and should be treating this and saving lives by admitting what it really is. Instead we're trying to normalize it and fix it thru surgery and as a result a whole shitload of people are dying. It stops being cute when people die.


Sounds like Sigmund Noid is at it once again.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:21 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.
I'm pointing out the flaw in thinking that something being a factor in a higher suicide rate means that it is mental illness. I could have used sexual orientation but I think gun ownership was a better example.

It's not. You're comparing two different mechanics here. You knew that too because in previous gun control arguments you've stated the true fact that gun owners are more likely to successfully commit suicide than non gun owners.
Were talking something like 47k suicides nationally, half of which are done with a gun. We're talking a gun population of nearly 400 million firearms. That's a very far cry from the 33% to 50% transgender suicide attempt rate.
Even for gays the rate is much much lower.
We are comparing the incidence of suicide between two groups. The first is the general population. The second is the subgroup. For both gun owners, and transgendered people, the suicide rate is higher by a significant margin. Yes, it's true that transgender suicide rates are really high but that doesn't mean it is a mental illness any more than it would for gun owners, or certain demographic groups.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:21 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.
I'm pointing out the flaw in thinking that something being a factor in a higher suicide rate means that it is mental illness. I could have used sexual orientation but I think gun ownership was a better example.

When you're talking a suicide attempt rate of 50% yeah you can go ahead and assume mental illness is a factor. We're not talking a 2 or 3% change from the non transgender numbers here. We're talking over a third to half the population. That's a major statistical outlier.

And back to my point, we could and should be treating this and saving lives by admitting what it really is. Instead we're trying to normalize it and fix it thru surgery and as a result a whole shitload of people are dying. It stops being cute when people die.


Sounds like Sigmund Noid is at it once again.

Add something constructive or fuck off.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:22 pm 
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99% of transgender people could commit suicide and it still wouldn't negate the 1% of the population that doesn't right to be transgender.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:23 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.
I'm pointing out the flaw in thinking that something being a factor in a higher suicide rate means that it is mental illness. I could have used sexual orientation but I think gun ownership was a better example.

When you're talking a suicide attempt rate of 50% yeah you can go ahead and assume mental illness is a factor. We're not talking a 2 or 3% change from the non transgender numbers here. We're talking over a third to half the population. That's a major statistical outlier.

And back to my point, we could and should be treating this and saving lives by admitting what it really is. Instead we're trying to normalize it and fix it thru surgery and as a result a whole shitload of people are dying. It stops being cute when people die.


Sounds like Sigmund Noid is at it once again.

Add something constructive or fuck off.


No go Bro.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:23 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Of course they have depression and/or anxiety. They are rejected by society and called crazy.

Really? Seems like these days they're often celebrated.


They get trips to Ellen. She gives prizes.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:24 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
When you're talking a suicide attempt rate of 50% yeah you can go ahead and assume mental illness is a factor. We're not talking a 2 or 3% change from the non transgender numbers here. We're talking over a third to half the population. That's a major statistical outlier.
The group you are talking about is an outcast in all parts of society though. Most jobs wouldn't hire a transgender person. Most people would stare at them simply for walking down the street. 95% of the people in this thread have called Wade a terrible parent for his actions here.

Darkside wrote:
And back to my point, we could and should be treating this and saving lives by admitting what it really is. Instead we're trying to normalize it and fix it thru surgery and as a result a whole shitload of people are dying. It stops being cute when people die.
If we are going there, the statistics show that the people who don't get the surgery also have a very high suicide rate.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:24 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.
I'm pointing out the flaw in thinking that something being a factor in a higher suicide rate means that it is mental illness. I could have used sexual orientation but I think gun ownership was a better example.

It's not. You're comparing two different mechanics here. You knew that too because in previous gun control arguments you've stated the true fact that gun owners are more likely to successfully commit suicide than non gun owners.
Were talking something like 47k suicides nationally, half of which are done with a gun. We're talking a gun population of nearly 400 million firearms. That's a very far cry from the 33% to 50% transgender suicide attempt rate.
Even for gays the rate is much much lower.
We are comparing the incidence of suicide between two groups. The first is the general population. The second is the subgroup. For both gun owners, and transgendered people, the suicide rate is higher by a significant margin. Yes, it's true that transgender suicide rates are really high but that doesn't mean it is a mental illness any more than it would for gun owners, or certain demographic groups.

When gun owners suicide rates approach 33 to 50% let's talk. Then were talking something like 50 to 75 million suicides a year, not the 50k we typically see. Until then you're comparing mechanics to causation which is inappropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:25 pm 
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As far as this and guns I will say it would be nice if they did a red flag check on the child and parents before gender switches. Safe not sorry ya know.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:26 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.
I'm pointing out the flaw in thinking that something being a factor in a higher suicide rate means that it is mental illness. I could have used sexual orientation but I think gun ownership was a better example.


We can't say they are mentally ill for certain, but we can be sure that it was mean people that drove all of these suicides due to ridicule. Sound logic.
Do you think gay people are mentally ill? They have far above average rates of suicide too.

The whole point is that suicide rates are often about environmental factors. You have cited previously the increasing suicide rate among marginalized white people and how life expectancy is not raising because of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:27 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
So much national conversation about such an infinitesimally small subset of the population.

The strength of the gay rights movement was in its relation to the straight community. The stigma died or is dying because once people started to live more openly the straight population realized that just about everyone knew someone who was gay within a couple of degrees of separation.

The highest estimates for the homosexual population is 10% but more likely in the 5% range. Trans is estimated at .6%.

We openly desecrate the sacred lands of people with larger populations

That's not to say trans are unworthy of equal rights. That discussion is not limited to only those with sufficient population. That is a moral discussion.


More gay people than black men in America. It's clear why I don't get any respect.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:28 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Darkside wrote:
When you're talking a suicide attempt rate of 50% yeah you can go ahead and assume mental illness is a factor. We're not talking a 2 or 3% change from the non transgender numbers here. We're talking over a third to half the population. That's a major statistical outlier.
The group you are talking about is an outcast in all parts of society though. Most jobs wouldn't hire a transgender person. Most people would stare at them simply for walking down the street. 95% of the people in this thread have called Wade a terrible parent for his actions here.

Most people wouldnt hire a person mumbling to someone that isn't there, and would stare at someone walking down the street engaged in a conversation with their reflection in a storefront window. That's because that person may be psychotic or schizophrenic, and is in need of treatment.

Brick wrote:
Darkside wrote:
And back to my point, we could and should be treating this and saving lives by admitting what it really is. Instead we're trying to normalize it and fix it thru surgery and as a result a whole shitload of people are dying. It stops being cute when people die.
If we are going there, the statistics show that the people who don't get the surgery also have a very high suicide rate.

You either missed my point or I wasnt clear enough. The surgery isn't the cause, the cause is the underlying disorder that would cause someone to feel this way. Surgery and normalization are our inappropriate responses rather than diagnosis and treatment.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:33 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.
I'm pointing out the flaw in thinking that something being a factor in a higher suicide rate means that it is mental illness. I could have used sexual orientation but I think gun ownership was a better example.


We can't say they are mentally ill for certain, but we can be sure that it was mean people that drove all of these suicides due to ridicule. Sound logic.
Do you think gay people are mentally ill? They have far above average rates of suicide too.

The whole point is that suicide rates are often about environmental factors. You have cited previously the increasing suicide rate among marginalized white people and how life expectancy is not raising because of it.


The ones that commit suicide very well might be. You also don't want to admit that people willing to undergo radical cosmetic surgery might be mentally ill. Also, I don't think there are firm statistics on people who are gay and commit suicide. It might be more accurate to look at people who are bullied, but I doubt if either of those data sets exist or are reliable.

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Last edited by WaitingforRuffcorn on Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:34 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
I'd say that's a good effort brick, but it wasn't.

It really wasn't. It's a bit disappointing that Rick doesn't have enough confidence in his position to actually give you a sincere reply.
I'm pointing out the flaw in thinking that something being a factor in a higher suicide rate means that it is mental illness. I could have used sexual orientation but I think gun ownership was a better example.

Do you really need someone to point out the flaw in this post?

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:37 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
So much national conversation about such an infinitesimally small subset of the population.



The conversation has nothing to do with "a small subset" of anything.

It's a discussion about the definition of who and what a person is.

That effects everyone, which is why it's being discussed.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:38 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Darkside wrote:
When you're talking a suicide attempt rate of 50% yeah you can go ahead and assume mental illness is a factor. We're not talking a 2 or 3% change from the non transgender numbers here. We're talking over a third to half the population. That's a major statistical outlier.
The group you are talking about is an outcast in all parts of society though. Most jobs wouldn't hire a transgender person. Most people would stare at them simply for walking down the street. 95% of the people in this thread have called Wade a terrible parent for his actions here.

Darkside wrote:
And back to my point, we could and should be treating this and saving lives by admitting what it really is. Instead we're trying to normalize it and fix it thru surgery and as a result a whole shitload of people are dying. It stops being cute when people die.
If we are going there, the statistics show that the people who don't get the surgery also have a very high suicide rate.


You essentially agreed with me and most people in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:39 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
So much national conversation about such an infinitesimally small subset of the population.



The conversation has nothing to do with "a small subset" of anything.

It's a discussion about the definition of who and what a person is.

That effects everyone, which is why it's being discussed.

See. Even Seacrest can accept them.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:41 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
So much national conversation about such an infinitesimally small subset of the population.



The conversation has nothing to do with "a small subset" of anything.

It's a discussion about the definition of who and what a person is.

That effects everyone, which is why it's being discussed.

See. Even Seacrest can accept them.

Are you under the impression that I'm not accepting of them?
Truthfully, my stance is significantly more compassionate than Wade's in my opinion. If this was my child, and I knew statistically speaking there was literally a 50% chance hed attempt suicide, walking him down the path hes finding himself on will not help him, and I'd try to find another way.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:45 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
So much national conversation about such an infinitesimally small subset of the population.



The conversation has nothing to do with "a small subset" of anything.

It's a discussion about the definition of who and what a person is.

That effects everyone, which is why it's being discussed.

See. Even Seacrest can accept them.

Are you under the impression that I'm not accepting of them?
Truthfully, my stance is significantly more compassionate than Wade's in my opinion. If this was my child, and I knew statistically speaking there was literally a 50% chance hed attempt suicide, walking him down the path hes finding himself on will not help him, and I'd try to find another way.

What is the other way? You don't think Wade will have counseling available?

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:49 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
So much national conversation about such an infinitesimally small subset of the population.



The conversation has nothing to do with "a small subset" of anything.

It's a discussion about the definition of who and what a person is.

That effects everyone, which is why it's being discussed.

See. Even Seacrest can accept them.

Are you under the impression that I'm not accepting of them?
Truthfully, my stance is significantly more compassionate than Wade's in my opinion. If this was my child, and I knew statistically speaking there was literally a 50% chance hed attempt suicide, walking him down the path hes finding himself on will not help him, and I'd try to find another way.



Without seeming terribly academic about this Sigmund there isn't a 50% chance that he will attempt anything, let alone suicide. You cannot posit that he will do this simply because others with his sexuality have done it. The only way that you can draw the sort of correlation that you are seeking to draw is if you can definitively establish that being transgender caused the suicide. You can't so its probably best to stop trying.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:49 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
What is the other way? You don't think Wade will have counseling available?

I'm sure counseling will be available however I'm be concerned that its success would be limited if the child is allowed to have the symptoms reinforced thru normalization and potentially surgery.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:52 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
So much national conversation about such an infinitesimally small subset of the population.



The conversation has nothing to do with "a small subset" of anything.

It's a discussion about the definition of who and what a person is.

That effects everyone, which is why it's being discussed.

See. Even Seacrest can accept them.

Are you under the impression that I'm not accepting of them?
Truthfully, my stance is significantly more compassionate than Wade's in my opinion. If this was my child, and I knew statistically speaking there was literally a 50% chance hed attempt suicide, walking him down the path hes finding himself on will not help him, and I'd try to find another way.



Without seeming terribly academic about this Sigmund there isn't a 50% chance that he will attempt anything, let alone suicide. You cannot posit that he will do this simply because others with his sexuality have done it. The only way that you can draw the sort of correlation that you are seeking to draw is if you can definitively establish that being transgender caused the suicide. You can't so its probably best to stop trying.

You can save the insults.
Statistics show transgender males attempt suicide at a 50% clip. Does that mean that whether this child attempts suicide is a coin flip? Of course not. There are millions of factors at play. But let me ask you, if your family history revealed you have a 50% chance of acquiring colon cancer by age 50, would you be getting biannual colonoscopies starting before your 45th?

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bigfan wrote:
Many that is true, but an incomplete statement.


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 Post subject: Re: Dwyane Wade?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:53 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
What is the other way? You don't think Wade will have counseling available?

I'm sure counseling will be available however I'm be concerned that its success would be limited if the child is allowed to have the symptoms reinforced thru normalization and potentially surgery.

So the counseling would be treating it as a disease with the only option being it is completely rejected? What happens if this treatment fails?

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