We need to get ourselves out of the mentality that we are entitled to quit working and sit on our asses for the last 20 years of our lfe, or more.

And then expect to have the ass sitting funded by a Ponzi scheme like the DJIA.

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If you want to cut global emissions a great place to start is drastically reducing the maritime trade across the Pacific. And if you want to stimulate the American economy in the wake of a self-inflicted recession (though I reckon this is going to be worse than 2008 when its all said and done) the best way to do is to force all this manufacturing to relocate to the United States.

The political will for another massive bailout is about zero, especially in an election year. I'm actually having doubts the airlines will even see any money, they'll just be expected to take out enough interest free loans to get them out of this mess.

But there will be growing pains. A lot of stuff made in China these days are not things that used to be Made in America. Its things we have never really made on American soil in any large number to begin with. Americans will have to figure out the whole component supply chain from start to finish. Its a monumental undertaking. It presents a massive opportunity though, and a real litmus test for Trump's economic nationalism. The political will is there to basically sever all trade relations with China, people are done with them. Not just in the United States, but around the world.

That's perfectly acceptable. As long as everyone gets the money they put in for Social Security.

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Shutting down global trade makes no sense. Companies need to diversify their supply chains as not to be exposed to one geography or supplier. The rules of global trade need to be updated and enforced, but we are just as guilty as others at subsidizing politically powerful industries.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Who said anything about shutting down global trade? If anything exiling China from the system would strengthen global trade. They are a bad actor, they dont deserve access to the global market.

I believe when the age of 65 was designated for eligibility, the average life expectancy was like 73.

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I don't remember half the time if I'm hiding or I'm lost

Well a few posts above, you certainly suggested curtailing it and lamenting things made in China.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

I don't mind working as long as I am able, but to think I'll be of much value at the age of 80 is wishful thinking. My mind is already slipping and I'm not even 50 yet.

I'd have been qualified to be a Wal-Mart greeter, but they cut those jobs.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Yeah but just China. Trade with everyone else can go on unimpeded. Things would actually improve dramatically if you kicked China out.

China joining the WTO was a controversial fight. It was hoped they would open up as a result. They haven’t lived up to their commitments. But we need them to be part of the global marketplace. They have joined the ranks of middle income countries. The question is will they eventually reach first world status.

I would prefer we engage with them constructively. China bashing does us no good. TPP would have been a great first step because it allied all the Pacific Countries by setting the rules of trade, but Trump wasn’t going to give Obama the victory. Instead all the other countries joined without us.

We just have this reflexive hate China first mentality. I prefer engagement. I get the angst among Americans about China. We aren’t going to war with them hopefully, and there aren’t going anywhere. Which makes the best alternative, constructive engagement.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Yeah, as if people aren't constantly getting replaced by younger and cheaper employees already.

Pension plans, which are already based on unrealistic investment returns of 8% per year (give or take), are completely fucked.

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This is some high grade PRC propaganda right here.

You cannot be constructive with the Chinese. They see everything as a zero-sum game. They talk a big talk about "peaceful rise" and all that but they routinely imperil the global system.

They menace their neighbours incessantly, they still refuse to acknowledge Taiwanese, Tibetan or Hong Kong sovereignty and they build actual islands so they can steal territorial waters from Vietnam, Malaysia and the Philippines. They have forced reeducation camps in the western part of the country. They propped up the DPRK for decades, encouraging them to put Seoul under perpetual peril of annihilation. And now they are trying to blame Americans for this disease that either escaped from their bioweapons lab or came about because they have raw-animal markets.

You keep thinking you can refine them and make them work within the bounds set by international convention but you cant. They are malignant and aggressive. They dont respect anything. The options are either to let them a part of the system, which is only a invitation for them to destroy it, or protect the rest of the world by banishing them to the sidelines. This is the defining struggle of this decade, perhaps this century. It may the final act of the United States of America as we know it, but it has to be done.

We had leverage. We just lost it.

People had a lot of fear about Japan in the 80’s. They seemed poised to overtake us. Now they are well integrated into global trade and first world norms.

Taiwan is a very unique issue. Hong Kong is absolutely part of China.

Well if you want to cut them off and go to war, have at it. I am sure that will work out great.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Yeah I was thinking that yesterday. Their equity allocations are trashed. And they were forced into equities because of prolonged low interest rates. Now there is no way to earn an adequate fixed income return. Maybe this will allow us to take a fresh, sober look at the unsustainability of DB pensions. The private sector ones already died because the pensions outlived the sponsor companies.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

The people of Hong Kong are in streets demanding otherwise. Are you really going to abandon the idea of self-determination just to continually appease China?

Uhh...we're fucked. China will be the top economic power within the year.

They are tempting broader economic collapse if the rest of the world doesn't reopen to them in the next twelve months. And militarily they are thirty or so years behind the United States with almost no strategic allies of note.

Say what you will about the cost overruns of the F-35 program and its combat effectiveness (which is so muddled by idiotic debates that who even knows what its capable of), but it has served its political purpose beyond anyone's wildest dreams. The truth is that aircraft has accomplished it's goals without ever needing to fire a shot in anger against the Chinese, it almost assuredly never will. It has basically bonded South Korea, Japan, Singapore and Australia to the United States, a noose around China's eastern shore.

Their position is totally untenable. All we need to do is stomp on their neck by shutting them out of global trade, something we can very easily do.

That will piss them off. REALLY piss them off.
Besides, that ain't happening. As far as I'm concerned, they got the world b the shorthairs unless we pull our heads out of asses soon. Soon, we are going to be naked.

No, it's not something we can easily do.

I agree with you China is a problem. I also agree with Denis in that it's better to have them be part of global trade, but as you've pointed out....they're bad actors. any hate-reflex with China they've done to themselves.

The problem is, cutting off China will be incredibly painful and complicated. Our reliance on them is self-inflicted. The only solution involves us and everyone else finding a way to strong-arm them into honest behavior. Easier said than done, but it's easier and more realistic then else just cutting off. We don't have the manufacturing in place to do so and our industries don't have that kind of long-term vision to invest.

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We were on a great path before this shitstorm hit. We were on a path to get manufacturing in place. Now we're just fucked.

why is trump allowing all of this? what a fuckin pussy

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the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

The US was on its way to move manufacturing out of China back to the US? It was a political talking point but was it actually happening? I don't buy it.

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The next three or so years are going to be a nightmare economically no matter what we do. May as well get some good out of it. 2008 presented a great opportunity for us to make some hard reforms while things were going to be shit anyways, now 2020 has presented us a similar chance. Canada, Oceania, EU, UK and developing markets can combined overcome the loss of China. It'll hurt farmers more than anyone, but the alternative is China continuing to put the world at peril.

They cannot be strong-armed into honest behaviour, it'll never work. We have tried for decades to get them to act in good faith and they just refuse to do it. Really, the crackdown in Hong Kong is way more illustrative of how hopeless it is to expect them to reform themselves than the corona virus, but its hard for Americans to really conceptualize the Hong Kong situation because its on the other side of the world.

WTF do you think all the strong arming China on fair trade was all about? It's to get on the path of self sustainment.

It's all moot now anyway. While we cry in our beer, China will be working. On several fronts. Their goals aren't secret.

Oil doing well today all things considered.

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It wasn't. The political talking points are showing in many.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Yeah because an oil exec and a Senator went on CNBC today and advocated banning imported oil.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

After China is dealt with the Saudi's and the rentier states should be next on the list of Problems to Be Solved.