You are aware that a lot of deliveries to the british went to the russians, right?

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Stalin never was quoted as saying that and for the record he denied it publicly until the time of his death. He never acknowledged the U.S. role publicly and Khrushchev said there was no record of it other than his word.

Thanks for once again providing absolutely nothing.

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Why would Khrushchev, in the middle of a cold war with the US, credit the US with crucial aid in the Great Patriotic War?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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The number I provided accounts for Britain's Lend Lease shipments. They are allied vs Domestic. Not just American.

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I didn't bother with your link. If accurate, touche. Now, if millions of tons of shipping from the US made it to the Russians during Barbarossa, why did you say Russia won without lend lease and US efforts?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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It may have been a time of cooperation strangely enough. Even though there were engaged in the Cold War there were times when the U.S. and the Soviets "lessened the tension" could have been one of those times. No way to trust Khrushchev I still haven't heard a plausible explanation as to how they defeat Germany if they invade Britain and the Luftwaffe explanation doesn't quite cur it. A aerial standoff when Germany's overwhelming strength lie in ground forces? Really?

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By the time the battle of stalingrad was ended, close to 7.5 million tons of american materials made it to Russia.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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I didnt catch that... what now?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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Cooperation between the us and Soviets between 46 and 90? Ok. What about zhukov saying what he said in 63? An era of cooperation?


Yes. Really. Tell me, how do you get ground forces into England?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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How does Britain and the U.S. hold off Germany without Russian manpower? That question still hasn't been answered and no saying its irrelevant in 1941 really ain't cutting it.

Russia pushed back the Germans. How does the U.S. and Britain do this in 1941 if we remove Russia?

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The British Empire had a population in the neighbourhood of four times that of the USSR.

I've explained it probably at least 3 or 4 times now.
1. Germany had by the time they'd over run france, extended their ground forces beyond reasonable supply lines.
2. Germany was losing more equipment than they were building.
3. Germany had little access to oil thus their need to ally with or invade russian territory.
4. Germany absolute lost the battle of britian and by mid 43 lost the battle of the Atlantic.
5. England was reading Germanys codes having broke them. As a result, they knew where naval forces were positioned and knew how to largely get by them.

In essence, as far as england goes, german ground forces were irrelevant. Germany wasnt taking england.
As far as europe goes, germany literally couldn't sustain their war efforts with both domestic production and the slave labor they subjugated throughout europe. Ask albert speer. He knew it.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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Actually,While the British did a lot. If it was not for the Polish effort at stealing a machine and getting it to the British they would not have done as well of a job.
The American codebreakers in the Pacific played a huge part as well,let us not forget.

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When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

A lot of WW2 goes back to 1919, there really was no end to the First War just a short pause. The worse thing that could have happened to the Allies is in Dec 1941 is that Hitler did not declare war on the USA. He would have done that he would have fucked FDR and Churchill over. There would have been no way the American people would have allowed the military and industry to be used for anything but crushing the Japanese Empire. He had enough trouble as it was trying to keep the public and military focused on Germany until 1943. Without Lend Lease to Britain and USSR,war is over. U.k> would probably lose Africa and part of Middle East. USSR well they might just collapse,in 45 they where almost out of men. Without help from USA,there would be no mass shipments of trucks,planes and most importantly SPAM.Remember even with them going almost 100% of their industry on tank production about 1/3 of their tank park was M4 Shermans. It might even convince a couple of the neurtrals to come in on Germanys side,Turkey. They had a long history of friendship with Germany.

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When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

The one thing about Lend Lease that most people miss is that a certain percentage of what the Brits got was to be forwarded to the USSR per treaties and such.

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When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

Where his argument is silly is his premise about the US having a negligible effect of the war in Europe The US entry into the war in that theater was HUGE and the overwhelming reason why the allies won that war. Between the entry of the US into that theater and Hitler being in charge of the military decision making in Germany, the war decision was assured. Hitler at the beginning of WWII had the best trained, best equipped military force in the world. No question about it. They also at one point had some very smart generals but a lot of the real military brains got replaced by guys who were Hitler's lackeys.

I guess Hitler thought that the Japanese would tie up the US entirely in its own military theater but he was once again wrong. The Japs didn't destroy our carriers and it was our carriers, its planes, and the rest of what remained of our fleet and SUBMARINES that rapidly destroyed the Japanese fleet and aircraft and facilitated the very difficult process of digging them out of their island chain and Japan itself. Enter the MARINES and our Naval superiority. Not to mention the very rapid conversion of an American industrial surge that produced American tanks, ships, aircraft, and SOLDIERS AND SAILORS in a very small amount of time.

I guess that LTG is just so head up in his negative view of this country that he wants to down play American excellence in its dealings with all things historical including our minor role in the European theater in WWII. Once again, those cemeteries in Normandy and a lot of Europe would prove otherwise.

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An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

That's a horrible misstatement of what actually happened. Most of the Russians casualties were not occasioned in fighting but rather because of the starvation and illness in that army. they basically retreated over vast amounts of territory and were brutalized by the invaded German army and air force. Then you had the infamous SIEGE in which millions of Soviet soldiers and civilians died.

By the way, the worthiness of fighting is told in not the amount of deaths that are incurred but rather yourself and your comrades not dying yet still kicking ass and winning. The Russian army was basically a badly led, ill equipped military force that had one marching order....RETREAT AND BURN while getting your ass kicked. Stalin didn't give a shit about the losses he got. Less to feed, clothe, and even supply bullets to. ANd if Hitler hadn't been so stupid to invade that vast expanse of awful terrain, Stalin would have been glad just to sit and wait for the US and its other allies to get killed by the Germans and leave Russia a huge share of the territory and wealth.

Stalin, has never gotten the deserved hatred of the world like Hitler has. Neither has Mao.

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An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

I believe so. I think that even Germany did not know ahead of time that Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor. I think that was pretty much solely the Japanese decision. Hitler should have known that if the US entered solely into the war in Europe that Germany would be in trouble and it proved true despite the fact that the US ended up fighting in two major theaters during WWII.

Hitler also showed up to WWII that he would take over countries and then strike peace deals with others in the region. I think that if the US would have entered the war against Germany and Italy that he would have played the peace deal card. Think of it this way. Without the losses at Pearl, between the British and the US Naval forces, Hitler would have his navy crushed very early and eventually its land based air corps also. Add the US rapid production of aircraft to the experienced forces of Britain and the German air corps would have been quickly demolished. Germany would have then be surrounded as it ended up being in 1945. My guess is that the war in Europe would have started as far as US involvement in 1942 and ended up in late 1943 or early 1944. LIke I have said, Hitler, would have tried like hell to arrange a peace deal and accept parts of Europe as in his already won territory as his reward.

_________________
An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

Germany did not have the troops to command because it didn't have the command of the air to protect their naval landing craft. Their landing craft would have been sitting ducks trying to crash the Channel. I also believe that FDR would have declared war on Germany at a point prior to them attempting to invade England. This would have been the breaking point of FDR. FDR hated Stalin but he wouldn't have let England fall.

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An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

Hawk, i disagree. Hitler outlined his plot to invade Russia in mein kampf. Stalin knew it too. Russian troops are reported to have engaged germans who were simply approaching lines to report Intel.
The only way hitler doesn't invade Russia is if Russia gives germany access to Caucasus and Romanian oil freely. Stalin wasn't hip to that at all. Stalin distrusted the allies even while accepting their aid. It's the culture.
By the time hitler crossed Poland stalin knew what was up.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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100% right. And Churchill as the British leader was to me the most inspiring leader in the entire free world at the time.

_________________
An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

This is truth. England's air superiority was precisely why the german ground troops were irrelevant, and a big reason why hitler was confident redeploying east.
Germany lost the battle of the atlantic officially mid 43, but it was decided long before that.
Plus.... the codes. England was reading their mail. Germany didnt know that, though. Rumors are out there that churchill allowed merchants to be sunk so as not to arouse suspicion. Bad guy? Maybe. That's another debate.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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It took very little time to crank up American manufacturing might.

_________________
An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

Yes, and they had a head start. The ramp up happened before 12/7/41. Assuming the war effort was ramped up upon pearl was a mistake by the above poster imho

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That's your racism speaking again

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Boys. Keep it clean. Theres enough to debate without that.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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You once again are talking out of your ass. What, for example, do you know about "how Wars are fought". A far as the US not being "prepared to fight the type of war necessary for Germany, what do you imagine would have happened if the US would have declared war against Germany in let say 1940-41? How quickly do you think that we would have declared war and a military draft? How long would it have taken for American soldiers and Marines to have been shipped to England and elsewhere to enter the war? Would the amazing conversion of American commercial enterprises into war goods not have happened in 1940 like it did in 1942? Think that the great production of planes and ships that occurred would not have happened?

No man, if the US had entered the war in 1940. The outcome of the war would pretty much been the same except for a couple of years earlier demise of Germany, Italy, and Japan. And if Truman would have given the go ahead for Patton, Russia also.

_________________
An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

Its only a theory. I know about Mein kampf and Hitler's notion. My theory is that Hitler was a pragmatist for awhile and if Japan had not attacked, the entire war in the west would have been completely different. I think Hitler would have settled for territory won, fed his nationalistic ego and waited to see what happened later. His biggest mistake was believing that the US would be so occupied with Japan that it wouldn't have time, manpower and resources to fight in Europe. He chose wrongly

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An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

Word. Do you believe that the US sits on the sidelines in europe without pearl?
I mean, it's possible England had shit handled with aid alone. Russia was not a concern of the US at all until barbarossa and then russia was mainly a convenient distraction.
Or does the US enter when rommel over ran north Africa and US commanders knew that with access to Iranian oil, germany didnt need to fuck with Russia?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014