I will not ignore it when this guy calls me a racist. He entered this thread with an insult aimed at WFR and like he always does cries racism when someone disagrees with him. He basically also dishonored those Americans who fought and died against the Japanese calling Japan a paper tiger and then doubled down on stupidity claiming that the US had a minor role in the European theater. I stated that those cemeteries where our troops were buried say otherwise. I think that my "point" was/is a valid one.

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An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

I guess ignorance is a defense, but this is a person that proclaims everyone who disagrees with him as a Fox News shrill and an idiot because of his “advanced degrees”. If you have ever written in an academic setting you should know that reliable citations is at the core of any research. Saying Oriental Review says so while denying verified quotes from Soviet leadership including Stalin isn’t a historical debate.

It’s inane ranting in response to facts one party dislikes.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

Or it could be that they simply didn't want to engage Germany. Roosevelt actually reneged on a chance to open the 2and Front. It also would better aid the Soviets (moreover than Lend Lease) and illustrate that GB and the US were capable of really taking on Germany (as so many claim now)

They left Russia to Conduct most of the fighting against the strongest military on earth.

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Its shocking that the guy most likely to use such a site was the guy that actually knew what type of site that it is. It's also interesting that it's the only thing that you seem to concern yourself with.


Sorry I'm not privy to right wing hacks and nothing I posted pertained to Jewish people. However since you are so concerned why not simply respond to my previous question regarding Anti Semitism? How about that otherwise you're lying.

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You are a racist.

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That’s not an argument. Saying the United States didn’t invade in 1942 means nothing. They engaged in North Africa in 1942. Invaded Sicily and Italy the next year, and France the next. Germany couldn’t invade England in 1940 from a continent they controlled. In two years the United States was on the doorsteps of Germany and Japan across the biggest fronts in human history.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

It’s a bullshit source. Just admit it.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

Oh yeah I will and thought it might have been when I cited it but I'm not familiar with them. Nothing I posted pertained to Jewish people so it makes little sense to allude to it. Unless you want to allude to Anti Semitism yet again. Since you have provide proof or you are lying. Simple.

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All of this is a lie. For example me and Darkside have disagreed throughout this this thread and I haven't said any of this with respect to him.

I guarantee that you have referenced my "advanced degrees" over the years much more than I have? If you ca not prove that I say either of these in every statement that I make then you are lying.

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It could be but it isn't.
Operation touch was already being planned for. The idea was to meet light resistance from a forward operating base out of Gibraltar. By the end of July 42, Roosevelt had issued a direct order that this operation was to be the top priority. By the time stalin asked for a second front in france, one was already a year in the making in north Africa (intel recon started in summer 41 prior to official declaration of war). Controlling Mediterranean would mean sicily. Sicily means italy. Italy means a front opened in france can create pressure on Berlin from two directions.

At the time, neither england nor the americans were ready to dedicate two amphibious landings on two fronts.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Well... it's not exactly just an antisemitic site. It would seem it's a russian based website that could be run by the GRU.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Here we go once again. Next to calling someone who disagrees with him a racist, he will also turn back to an old standby of his and call the other person a Liar. One trick pony throughout.

_________________
An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

Chas the start of the war was 1939. That is the common consensus and has been for decades.

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This is a bigoted statement. This is a bigoted statement that was made by you.

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WWII is generally accepted to have commenced with the German invasion of Poland.
It could be argued that china and japan had been at war for two years at that point.
Some even argue that the spanish civil war signaled the start of european hostilities as italy and germany supported Franco.

It is somewhat open to interpretation, however, somewhat irrelevant to the topic at hand.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Guys let's keep this clean. Take that to the foxx thread.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Darko FDR's statement heavily supports everything that I have stated regarding the importance of Soviet Union. The fact they refused to open up a 2nd Front strongly suggests that they wanted no part of Germany either. Stalin felt the same way about it

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This particular statement right here.
FDR admitted that the most significant role of anyone was played by the Soviets. This statement was made late in 1943.

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That's really not true. FDR knew that the Russians were fighting for their lives and were fighting well, and he knew that their fight was essential to allied success in the long term but you're misinterpreting his words. They did not refuse to open a second front in europe. They just didnt do what stalin wanted. Their second front was north africa.
Stalin had a complete different view of warfare than did churchill and roosevelt. His philosophical was to run headfirst into battle. Brute force without regard to consequences. It's a big reason why his losses were so heavy.
Churchill wanted to fight winnable battles with the benefit of technology and strategy. As the saying goes, he was playing chess while stalin played checkers.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Honestly you're losing me at this point. I'm really not sure what your argument it. We accept that Russia held strong and took a solid shot to the jaw. They punched back with all they had and ultimately held. Barbarossa was a massive tactical failure.
I've never seen anyone argue ever that Russia wasnt a massive factor in the outcome of the war.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Africa was a proxy war relatively speaking. The real and more consequential fighting was occurring in Europe and not Africa. Geopolitically speaking Africa wasn't important to the war effort. Europe was and the it was much more important to defeat Germany in Europe that it was in Africa.

When Churchill said that it would be "disastrous" he was discussing distrastrous for the U.S. and Britain. This also would have afforded to both allies an opportunity to take the Germans on in the theater which you claimed they were prepared to fight. They didn't want to and Stalin knew it.

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Look Darkside. Out of respect for you and what you want to talk about, I will drop out of this thread. You know a lot about WWII and so do some of the other people who have interacted here. I just knew that as soon as LTG got on this thread and insulted WFR stupidly, like he always does, this thread would have problems like always when he takes it over. So, since LTG is protected and always has to get the last word in, I'm out. So he's "won" in his opinion. Later.

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An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip

My original point pertained to Russia being the most significant factor in winning the war. They were the country that provided the bulk of the fighting against Germany and they were the ones that took most of the casualties. Without their effort things may have been different. You say American aid to Russia is more significant. I disagree for a myriad of reasons.

Roosevelt's quotes and actions strongly suggest that he agrees with my assertion too. He clearly stated that the ",heavy lifting" was being conducted by the Russians. There is really no other way to interpret them either.

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Proxy war? That's not correct. It was important to set up north africa as a logistical center. Ultimately, this led to the invasion and liberation of italy.
When italy didnt hold, as noted earlier, hitler redeployed massive resources from the east into southern europe. It was a tactical and logistical necessity.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Hawk, as a military man your input is valued here. I'm sure you can offer tactical and strategic analysis that I do not have training to understand. As it is, I rely on historians and their analysis to give me understanding. There as a result is no one consensus as to what did what and med to what. I mean historians really dont agree on what year WWII really began. You win by staying in and posting your view of history and don't fight unnecessary battles on other fronts. Stick it out.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Relatively speaking it was
It wasn't more important than taking back France. The only way that the Allies were going to fight in Europe was if Britain was attacked. That's obvious and if they were really aiding Russia as much as it was claimed they would have opened the 2 Front in Europe

Russia was essentially holding down Europe all by themselves.

I will simply ask you this. Would it have been more important to aid Russia with troops or guns?

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If Russia had not held up in 1941/42 the eventual western front would have been a lot different. Is someone arguing against this?

Yeah and they have been for 2 days now. Darko has made a number of valid points but he seems to contend that the most important factor in the War wasn't Russia's war effort. I respectfully disagree

I also contend that the 2 war front was the decisive factor in determining the outcome of the War. He disagrees with that as well.

He says that Lend Lease was the most decisive factor even though Roosevelt himself stated something different.

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The greatest impediment to any offensive the Allied side would make is two fold. Amphibious craft and the readiness of the American Army. Aswas shone in Torch,the US army was in no way ready to fight the regular German army near their supply sources. The Africa Korps and 9th Panzer armee in North Africa was able to bloody the American army for a decent amount of time all the while hobbled with Hitlers insane "no Retreat" order. It gave the generals no room to maneuver. As much as the American brass did not want to get involved in the Mediterranean,in a way they where correct, it did function in two really good ways. It gave the american officer corps experience in large scale warfare. Just look at for example Terry Allen and 1st ID in North Africa and Sicily. Also Lucian Truscott. Those two guys where the ones who helped make the Patton legend. Second it help work out kinks and flaws in american supply and equipment design. The one dad thing that was shown that was not corrected because of the way the American army was designed was the replacement system. It was the one thing the Germans did 100x better throughout the war.

The Russians where important but they also where a part of the problem. If they had not helped in the rearmament of Germany in the 20s and 30s Hitler would never had been in a position to do what he did in the timeframe he did.

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When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

Your original point was:


I have focused my efforts this weekend on countering the point that without the russians, the allies do not win the war.
Now as to your new point about being the most significant factor in the war, that's debatable. Yes. The russians succeed the most casualties of the war excluding civilians and certain ethic groups that were targeted. Getting killed doesn't win wars.
Now, I do not postulate that aid to russia was more significant (than russian fighting), I was trying to impress that the russian effort was not without help.
And again, no one disagrees that Russia did a shitload of work. That was never the argument.
Was russia the most significant factor? It really depends on your metrics. One reason english and american losses were low compared to russian was code breaking. Another was a superior strategy. Stalin as noted before ran headlong into battle disregarding losses. The other allies did not. Other significant factors were economic and manufacturing advantages the US enjoyed. And the technology was on our side by the end of the war.
Dont forget, the us was tied up on another whole theatre when stalin made his request and at that time, just having fought the battle of midway. Our naval production (and preparing for the necessity of amphibious island hopping assaults in the near future) was tied up to pacific concerns. Remember, we were behind the 8 ball fighting the world class of navies that just decimated our pacific fleet in a surprise attack. Who do you think was a higher priority? A navy that did indeed have capacity to expand its sphere of influence to the american coast or Germany who was dedicated to a land war and was not an immediate threat to the homeland?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014