XPac was garbage. Better than Gagne but not by much. He was bad technically and also not a power guy either. He went unnoticed until the DX thing came along and even then he was still regarded as weak. Hell Chyna was even more highly regarded than he was.

If we're talking 'could do shit in the ring', not in any order ...

Bret
Kurt
Dean
Rey
Jericho
Lance Storm
Liger
Tanahashi
Muta
Tajiri
Ultimo Dragon
Juvi
Psychosis
Dynamite Kid
Eddie
Steamboat
AJ
Omega

There are of course MANY more but that's what just fell out of my head.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

XPac was usually the guy that they put newbies against to see if they were ready for the main roster. Not overrated.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

XPac should have been a jobber given his lack of in ring ability.

I have MANY years of experience in trying to appreciate steaming piles of dogshit.

I generally agree with your wrestling thoughts, but this is just wrong. HE was not the greatest, but he was far from a jobber.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

I am not a legal expert, how many times do I have to say it?

Melo wishes he had the career of X Pac.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

He should have been. The WWF gave him a push because he had decent Mic skills. He got stronger pushes than guys like RVD and Malenko. Both would run laps around him in the ring.

I'm not a mic skills guy. I prefer the technical guys. Particularly if you are small.

Smallish dudes that run around kicking and punching all the time are boring. That's why I never cared for the XPac types.

I have MANY years of experience in trying to appreciate steaming piles of dogshit.

There is not a damned thing wrong with people who are bull shitters.

RVD got a World Title push.

Then he and Sabu got arrested.

I'd say that's a higher push than Waltman.

I have MANY years of experience in trying to appreciate steaming piles of dogshit.

If we're talking 'could do shit in the ring', not in any order ...

Bret
Kurt
Dean
Rey
Jericho
Lance Storm
Liger
Tanahashi
Muta
Tajiri
Ultimo Dragon
Juvi
Psychosis
Dynamite Kid
Eddie
Steamboat
AJ
Omega

There are of course MANY more but that's what just fell out of my head.

The One Who shall not be named

Alex Wright..shitty gimmicks but dude could put on a match

Hurricane Helms

I have MANY years of experience in trying to appreciate steaming piles of dogshit.

What are you basing them giving him a push because of his mic skills?

He basically got no time on the mic while in WCW. His ring skills are what got him even a shot at all.

All you seem focused on is the fact that he was small.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

No I'm focusing on him not being very good. He had no mic time in the WCW and not much of an impact either. He was a virtual unknown..
What exactly is argument by the way? You seem to be arguing that he was good while simultaneously arguing thst he really wasn't good.

For a great part of his career XPac was a jobber. He was elevated by the people that he surrounded himself with. That is how he attained notoriety. First the NWO then DX.

Whenever he couldn't attach himself to a group he was fairly nondescript

The small part was relative mostly to to other small guys that were much better yet didn't receive 1/2 the push that he did. Guys like Malenko for instance.


XPac ran around punching kicking for the entirety of the match then capping it off with "Suck it". If we are going to agree that Gagne was a stiff then it can't be that XPac was all that much better.

In the ring they did exactly the same thing. Punch kicked and go for the pin. Pretty Meh if you asked me and for what it's worth Gagne was much better as a technical wrestler than XPac could ever hope to be.

I have MANY years of experience in trying to appreciate steaming piles of dogshit.

He was not a jobber for most of his career. He started as a jobber. But then WWF gave him a shot against Razor Ramon. He got the win over Razor and suddenly became the 1-2-3 kid. Then he got a match against Bret Hart and he had a match that most consider to be a very good match and one in which Bret hart was very impressed with his ring skills. From there he got other opportunities in the WCW. He had a good run against Eddie Guerrero, and had several other good matches in the Cruiserweight division. He was members of two legendary groups in the NWO and DX.

So again my position is that he is not overrated. He was a good hand in both the WWF and the WCW. He was not great by any stretch, but he was way better than Gagne. Gagne was given everything he had by daddy. Xpac earned his way by impressing people and having good matches with people in order to go from jobber to a middle of card guy who could do some good things at times.

Well it was a combination of things. Waltman himself, if you watch any of his interviews on YouTube, will say that it was mostly drugs. I attribute it to more than just drugs though.

The further everybody, except for Triple H, who was in DX got away from DX, the worse off they became. Waltman, IMO, was never very good on the mic when he didn't have his buddies around to feed off of. Add that to, as was said, he never really changed. Then add that to drugs and his position in the middle of the Trips, Steph, and Chyna thing and you have a pretty volatile mix that would probably derail most people.

That's one scenario and I think it's apart of what happened, but I also think that Waltman was never ever good on his own as a wrestler. He didn't start gaining traction as a singles competitor in his first WWE run until his friend and fellow KLIQ member Hall gave him a rub. That was short lived. Then, in WCW, he was always with the nWo as Syxx. He had that one interesting feud with Flair that started because Flair said something about not being able to take Hall or Nash but he could take Syxx anytime. That was short lived. Then he comes back to the WWE and once again, he's with his buddies and getting shine from them. Then when DX breaks up, Trips is trying to compete with the Rock and Austin and the Outlaws are, I can't really remember but they were somewhere. Point is, Pac no longer had anyone to ride with and shine off of and he was never good enough to make it on his own steam. Add to that, like has been said, Jericho, Angle, Benoit, Guerrero, and others were tearing up the mid card to main event spots and honestly Pac just got left behind.

He was always entertaining in an ensemble, but not by himself. Those are my opinions anyway.

X-Pac was just terrible. Absolutely terrible. He couldn't work a good match, he couldn't talk, and he had the charisma of roadkill. Hell, he's where the term "X-Pac Heat" comes from. Fans started to despise him because X-Pac was CONSTANTLY shoved down our throats at every level, in every conceivable way, and flip-flopped between face and heel so rapidly that it would make Big Show barf. X-Pac was just the drizzling shits.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

I have MANY years of experience in trying to appreciate steaming piles of dogshit.

Buff Bagwell? he was brutal at all levels!

Interesting thread find on wrestlezone. Several in that thread said similar things as I am saying.

Again, he is not great, but he is not just a jobber like you are saying.

He is an above average worker who had a decent career. In other words, not overrated.

I think we agree on this more than either of us can see. But we can both agree Buff Bagwell was brutal!

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

I don't think he was a terrible worker or even terrible on the mic. When given a topic when as articulate and intense as anyone else. I loved his promos in WCW on Flair and Piper. Those were some of the best worked-shoot promos ever and his emotion played well on TV. But was featured more in WCW. He was given a mic. Yes, that was due to being in the Wolfpac with Hall and Nash but Waltman stepped up to the plate and became one of the more popular members.

X-Pac wasn't a terrible worker. He wasn't great but good. He was great matches with Bret and HBK in his first run and he worked well with the cruiser weights in WCW. He had solid matched with Jeff Jarrett, D-Lo Brown, and even brought out the best in Shane McMahon. But then they paired him with Kane which I didn't get. Kane was just so much bigger than X-Pac and it didn't look right on TV. I think that led his demise as much as anything. I think he would fare well in today's WWE where the emphasis on Size isn't there

I'm probably one of the few fans of Sean Waltman that are commenting on this thread (I'm sensing most of the replies to OP will be people bashing him relentlessly) and you know sometimes I wonder this very question to myself. He is the sole member of the Kliq who doesn't appear to be a 1st ballot HOF'er (or even a HOF'er at all), and the sole member who really can't stake a claim to being one of the most influential talents of 90's wrestling.

I think his wrestling talent is inarguable, he was very gifted wrestler technically while also combining pure striking with an above average aerial arsenal to boot. While he's not Ric Flair on the mic, I think he gets too much heat for his mic work. He was average, he could absolutely hold his own but I will admit he has only cut one memorable promo in his career

His matches were great in WCW against the cruiserweights and Flair. His mic skills were great and improved from there as they gave him the ball to to run with it

At least X Pac had to learn how to wrestle and pay his dues to get into the business he wasn't a reality tv ****e who kissed all the right asses. I'll give you the limited mic skills, but to say he couldn't work a match is flat out ignorant (look who I'm trying to debate, maybe I'm the ignorant one). Fans didn't despise him for constantly being pushed as you incorrectly (again) state, they were irritated by his constant heel/face turns and the fact he never evolved from his Dx character. It is well documented (by people who have actually wrestled before) that Waltman was a fantastic in ring worker and could make anyone look good, the only people who have this idea that he can't work are the marks who don't know shit.

He was great in ring early on,Heck his match with Bret Hart in 94 or 95?? Stills ranks up there as one of the best scientific/move for move matches I have ever seen!

Very true, his early career was full of very technically sound matches, his stuff in WCW vs the other cruiserweights we're always good and he had quite a few good matches in his 2nd WWE run, he even made Shane look good in one of his first real matches. Even in his later days when his sobriety became an issue he still put on more than adequate displays. People can argue that he wasted his talent due to his questionable lifestyle or they can rip on his mic skills, but trying to deny that he was a very good worker is just stupid.

The downfall of X pac or Sean Waltman ? If anything he overachieved.

Let's look at him honestly. He had speed and could work. He had no mike ability, and had no look. Better than Waltman worked in the WWE and never got anything close to what he got. Worked in main event matches, was a European champ, multiple time tag champion, part of one of the most popular stables in WWE's history. He had it pretty good. It's a shame that injuries and drug abuse took their toll but still, he had a nice run considering

Sean was a really good hand, when he first started as 123 kid/lightning kid. He had some really good matches with Bret and Razor. He even had a good little run tagging with Razor. Eventually the hard drugs and his ego, got in the way. He changed drastically when going from the kid to xpac!

I have MANY years of experience in trying to appreciate steaming piles of dogshit.

I am not a legal expert, how many times do I have to say it?

X-pac always rode with friends, he literally never did anything of import a lone.

When he was 1-2-3 Kid, he was a whatever mid card dude, but then when he became Syxx, he just rode with early NWO coat-tails, and the only reason he was relevant was because of them.

Cue joining DX, woohoo, yay year and a half of getting free reaction, dude literally went from the hottest stable in wrestling to, a close 2nd. Then he just kind of existed, did some stuff with Kane, they made fun of the whole voicebox gimmick and milked it til nobody cared.

DX dies, and he still is riding it, all the way until he had to be put into an X-factor stable , because Solo X-pac can't do anything or draw a dime. he keeps doing his drugs and getting Hep C from ring rats, then shows up to join the TOTALLY NOT NWO in TNA. And then that whole TOTALLY NOT NWO gimmick dies when his Hep C prevents him from wrestling anymore.

I never liked xpac
To me xpac was never a good wrestler at all. He was mediocre at best in the ring and on the mic.
He had no charisma. No qualities that separated him from other wrestlers.
The only reason he was relevant was bc he rode the coattails of his friends in DX and NWO.

His feuds were trash.The feud with kane was trash. Xpac basically dominated the feud. He should of never went over kane in the first place. Kane only won one match against him. That was at Armageddon 1999.
It destroyed kanes character.

Another thing I hated about xpac was that he barely lost clean in single matches. Which was BS.
xpac is not that good of a wrestler. He is a mediorce wrestler who only got where he is bc of who he knew.

What killed his character was drugs.
Refusing the evolve his character. Watch edge 2001 promo about xpac (it speaks the truth)
Boring matches.
No charisma.
Xpac heat.
All of those killed his character

As part of a group, I think X-Pac, Syxx, Waltman, whatever you want to call him played a good sidekick role. I thought he did well whenever he was playing the "little buddy" to the likes of Hall, Nash, Triple H or even Kane but I was never all that impressed by him on his own.

Drugs played a factor, he's admitted that himself on numerous occasions. Another factor was that by 2000, while he was a young man, he was someone who'd still been around and been featured prominently for a long time and there were just simply guys coming along who many felt were simply just better pro wrestlers than he was. This was the time guys like Jericho, Benoit, Mysterio, Guerrero and Angle were on the scene just tearing things up. Generally speaking, when I look at Sean Waltman and compare him with Jericho or Angle as to who should be pushed, I just have to go with Jericho and Angle all day everyday and twice on Sunday.

The problem was there wasn't any substance to him other than those he was taking.

As the 1-2-3 Kid it worked as a bland literal vanilla midget... people bought into him as "The Great White Hope" and it helped that guys like Yoko had the belt... He had a couple of great matches in that era with Bret and Razor before settling into mediocrity as part of The Corporation. He was awful as a heel and arguably did the least "good work" as part of DiBiase's stable. Tatanka didn't work as well, but he at least was putting forth effort to improve as a heel, futile as it was. Backstage he was already getting into trouble and was part of the infamous Shawn/Davey/Marine encounter...

Then he got hurt and went to WCW... and things continued to suck... he was the worst member of the NWO by far, even Vincent had more going for him... he was clearly there for who his buddies were and in a place where cruisers like Rey, Jericho, Malenko and Eddie were tearing up the place, and with real lucha and japanese stars in the mix, he was quickly out of his depth. He medicated himself accordingly and got his shot to go back to WWE cos he got fired... not so he could go back, but cos he was so messed up, Bischoff could get away with firing him as a message and say "Hey, he's fcuked himself..."

There's a revisionist view that Waltman was over as part of DX... he really wasn't... Even his big return was overshadowed by the Outlaws joining the fold. JR's commentary when he walked out kind of summed up many fans opinion... he made "look whose back..." sound like he'd just found a Mark Henry floater in the canHe was part of DX thanks to Hunter, but the group would have been far more successful with someone else in that role... had someone like Jericho come over that bit sooner then he would have been great in DX instead of X-Pac.

As time went on he was more exposed as a busted flush... The Kane stuff worked better with RVD... X-Factor was embarrassingly bad and even now, Waltman appears like the little hanger on at the HOF rather than ever getting in there himself.

Once DX ended there was no more "wriggle room" to hide his deficiencies and his increasingly pallid appearance due to the drug use... you had a lot of hungry talents appearing like Angle and Jericho and by then a whole developmental class including Brock, Orton, Cena and the like... Waltman probably COULD have flown under the radar in a jobber/lower mid role for a couple more years if he wasn't so messed up all the time.

But this was a WWE where guys like Kendrick got booted cos Vince despised his smoking...and guys like Jannetty (whose problem was directly linked to them) was released as often as he was rehired... So Waltman can have no complaints, he got away with far more than many did.

Ultimately he always got away with more his whole WWF career, even as far back as 1993...

Not at all. X-Pac is an overrated hack that made his career in the big time by riding the coat tails of others far more talented and more powerful behind the scenes. He did it with Shawn Michaels & Triple H in the WWF and he did it with Scott Hall & Kevin Nash in WCW. Take him out of the DX & nWo settings and the guy was nothing, had nothing going on and really had nothing to contribute.

Guys like Booker T and Kevin Nash still mean something in wrestling, which is why the WWE offered them deals to appear at the Rumble. Booker's doing commentary on SmackDown! and Nash will probably have something of a similar role when it's all said and done. Sean Waltman, on the other hand, is irrelevant and has pretty much always been irrelevant. He's a hanger on and nothing more.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

For instance they were never taught that Columbus was a slave owner.

To be overrated don't you have to be highly regarded in the first place? X-Pac is an idiot sidekick, who is highly underrated as a speech language pathologist, having given Kane the gift of speech. But I don't think he's considered much more than a mid or lower guy.

The most overrated is Hulk Hogan. He can't wrestle. His gimmick was becoming the Incredible Hulk and feeling no pain. He is a vital figure in wrestling history, but he's steroid fueled gimmick that caught on at the right time and eventually became an institution.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

Though a talented performer in his own right, X-Pac saw his popularity decline as the Attitude Era dwindled away, and while he was rarely pushed beyond the midcard, he was regularly booed out of the building, particularly when competing against wrestlers far more exciting than he was. X-Pac’s matches became the show’s bathroom break spot, and the hatred escalated beyond straight-forward heel heat.

People had grown to despise Waltman on a personal level thanks to his lack of evolution, tiresome gimmick, and regular victories over white-hot actsHe was so loathed that “X-Pac sucks” chants became commonplace during shows that he wasn’t even booked to wrestle on, and his 2002 release was met with celebration from those sick of his skin-crawling presence.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

Our hotel smelled like dead hooker vagina (before you ask I had gotten a detailed description from beardown)

I think Waltman was a guy that had some skill in the ring when he was younger, but he had an addictive personality that got amplified when he hooked up with the Clique...and much like Scott Hall, his self destructive behavior destroyed any ability he actually had in the ring. I get the feeling he was kept around in the long-ish term as a favor to Hunter, but even he couldn't save him from himself.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

To me he was always a jobber that received pushes well beyond what was warranted for guys of his ability. He went from jobber to wrestling for the World Championship in the span of a year. Now that's a push. They placed him with two of the most iconic factions in Wrestling history. Even when it was obvious that whatever fastball that he had was long gone they continued to have wrestlers that were much more talented job out to him.

It was obvious that Vince thought he had something there and tried to milk it til he couldn't milk it any longer. To label him a midcarder is to be extremely generous.

Our hotel smelled like dead hooker vagina (before you ask I had gotten a detailed description from beardown)

I have MANY years of experience in trying to appreciate steaming piles of dogshit.

Again, I understand there were plenty of quotes from that thing against him. I already said that. But you made it seem like the entire thread was people agreeing with you and that was not true. There were plenty of comments that agree with me as I showed above.

I stand by my position on this.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Great thread tho, loved thinking back through so many wrestling moments. Nice distraction.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.

I have MANY years of experience in trying to appreciate steaming piles of dogshit.

And in my opinion he was not garbage and he remains worlds better than Greg Gagne.

Anyone putting xpac and greg fucking gagne in the same category needs their head examined.

This is going to reach a head pretty soon.