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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:43 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I'm coming at this from a narrative point of view. If it's about the dynasty then the missed several key pieces, including Kukoc like I already mentioned. It was about Jordan. I don't have a problem saying Jordan is GOAT and the best player in the NBA at the time. I do have a problem when the show dimishes other pieces, presumably at Jordan's direction, while extolling Jordan. That's not a documentary, that's a puff piece. Hope my take doesn't make you think anything less of Michael Jordan when you pray to him before going to bed.
Kukoc was good but let's not make him into some superstar here. He started 20, 15, and 52 games on the 3 Bulls titles he was there for. He averaged 13 ppg every year for those teams.


:lol: Revisionist as hell. Kukoc was star 3a. A 6th man only because he played on the same team as Rodman and Pippen. He's a 18-7-7 guy on any other team, especially when he figured things out around 1995/1996. He's the only guy who could create his own shot after Pippen and Jordan and was a more natural and effortless scorer than Pip.

I agree

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:45 am 
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Scottie Pippen has reportedly joined a growing chorus of former Chicago Bulls to take issue with Michael Jordan’s outsized influence on The Last Dance, the wildly popular ESPN/Netflix docuseries on the team’s 1990s glory years which concluded on Sunday night.

Pippen, the Hall of Fame small forward and Jordan’s most imporant teammate during their imperious march to six NBA championships in eight years, is “beyond livid” with his portrayal in the 10-part docuseries, a Chicago-based ESPN Radio host said on Wednesday.


'Lie, lie, lie': Former Jordan teammate gives withering assessment of The Last Dance
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“He is so angry at Michael and how he was portrayed, called selfish, called this, called that, that he’s furious that he participated and did not realize what he was getting himself into,” ESPN 1000’s David Kaplan said on the Kap and Co radio show.

Some critics have noted the hit series, which tells the story of the Bulls’ dynasty through the lens of their final championship run during the 1997-98 season, relies too much on the perspective of Jordan, who maintained final cut and editorial control of the production – and Pippen appears to be among them.

Present-day interviews in early episodes of the series include Jordan calling his longtime wingman “selfish” over a contract dispute and casting a doubting eye on the migraine that compromised Pippen’s performance in Game 7 of the 1990 Eastern Conference finals, where the Bulls were defeated by the Detroit Pistons. Another episode devotes a lengthy segment to Pippen’s infamous decision to not re-enter Game 3 of Chicago’s 1994 Eastern Conference semi-final series against the New York Knicks for the final 1.8 seconds because Toni Kukoc was given the final shot over him.

“[Pippen] felt like up until the last few minutes of Game 6 against the Jazz [in the 1998 NBA finals, during the series’ last episode], it was just ‘bash Scottie, bash Scottie, bash Scottie,’” Kaplan said.

Pippen’s reported discontent came one day after Horace Grant, the starting power forward on the Bulls’ first three championship teams, said the documentary was edited to make Jordan look better.

“I would say [the documentary was] entertaining, but we know, who was there as teammates, that about 90% of it [was] BS in terms of the realness of it,” Grant said in an interview on ESPN 1000’s Kap and Co radio show on Tuesday. “It wasn’t real – because a lot of things [Jordan] said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But all of that was kind of edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary.”

Jordan is depicted as a man ruthlessly devoted to winning in The Last Dance, even if it comes at the expense of his personal popularity. Grant, who was with the Bulls for seven years, said Jordan sometimes went too far.

“He felt that he could dominate me, but that was sadly mistaken,” Grant said. “Because whenever he went at me, I went at him right back. But in terms of Will Perdue, Steve Kerr and the young man, Scott Burrell, that was heartbreaking [to watch]. To see a guy, a leader, to go at those guys like that. I understand in terms of practicing, you have a push and shove here and there, but outright punching [teammates] and things of that nature. And calling them the B’s and the H’s, that wasn’t called for.”

In May, ESPN’s Jackie McMullan hinted at Pippen’s disappointment with the production, saying: “Those close to him say he’s wounded and disappointed by his portrayal.”


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... ael-jordan

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:49 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
This goes back to the incoherence thing - is this about the 1998 season (which is where the title comes from) or is this about the Bulls dynasty (circa 1990-1998)? Is this about Jordan or the entire team? It doesn't fall neatly into any of those categories, which is a major blemish.

I don't understand this point. It's quite clear the documentary is about how Michael Jordan turned one of the worst franchises in sports into one of the best dynasties in the history of sports.


If that's the premise then that's not a documentary.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:50 am 
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The portrayal of Pippen was fairly accurate.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:51 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I'm coming at this from a narrative point of view. If it's about the dynasty then the missed several key pieces, including Kukoc like I already mentioned. It was about Jordan. I don't have a problem saying Jordan is GOAT and the best player in the NBA at the time. I do have a problem when the show dimishes other pieces, presumably at Jordan's direction, while extolling Jordan. That's not a documentary, that's a puff piece. Hope my take doesn't make you think anything less of Michael Jordan when you pray to him before going to bed.
Kukoc was good but let's not make him into some superstar here. He started 20, 15, and 52 games on the 3 Bulls titles he was there for. He averaged 13 ppg every year for those teams.


:lol: Revisionist as hell. Kukoc was star 3a. A 6th man only because he played on the same team as Rodman and Pippen. He's a 18-7-7 guy on any other team, especially when he figured things out around 1995/1996. He's the only guy who could create his own shot after Pippen and Jordan and was a more natural and effortless scorer than Pip.

EDIT: he also won regular season games when Jordan or Pip didn't have it and everyone remembers the four game winners he nailed as a ROOKIE in 1994, including one in the playoffs.
It's not revisionist at all. He did 18-7-7 on a terrible Bulls team the next year and never came close to it again. His percentages went down pretty hard too to do it.

He was important and he got a good amount of screen time too.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:58 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
MJ needled everybody! How many times do you think he said "Scott Burrell" during the series?

Other than Phil Jackson, whom did MJ universally praise during all ten episodes?


Pippen is no Burrell though. Pippen is a co-star of Jordan's, not a supporting cast member. He should have received more deference. Jordan's first comment in his HOF speech was about Pippen. YouTube it - it's the first thing he said. It seemed that three seconds' worth of honesty was too much for Jordan to carry over to this hagiography/Jordan brand propaganda.

Just making things up now? Jordan said in the doc Pippen was the best teammate he ever had and he never won a title without Pip there.


He deserves more than a line. Within the narrative, he wasn't represented fairly and his contributions were diminished. His faults were magnified while Jordan's faults were recast as unique magical powers that propelled people to achieve things they otherwise wouldn't have without someone punching them in the face and calling them bitches and hoes.

I already said what I thought Jordan should have given Scottie more credit for, but I don't agree with this characterization at all. Jordan's faults were presented for what they were - faults. There's a reason Jordan got so emotional when the interviewer brought up if he thought his teammates disliked him because of that.

Scottie was clearly the 2nd best player throughout the run, and that was emphasized, imo, in the doc. But he's not Michael Jordan's equal and shouldn't have been presented as one.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:00 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I'm coming at this from a narrative point of view. If it's about the dynasty then the missed several key pieces, including Kukoc like I already mentioned. It was about Jordan. I don't have a problem saying Jordan is GOAT and the best player in the NBA at the time. I do have a problem when the show dimishes other pieces, presumably at Jordan's direction, while extolling Jordan. That's not a documentary, that's a puff piece. Hope my take doesn't make you think anything less of Michael Jordan when you pray to him before going to bed.
Kukoc was good but let's not make him into some superstar here. He started 20, 15, and 52 games on the 3 Bulls titles he was there for. He averaged 13 ppg every year for those teams.


:lol: Revisionist as hell. Kukoc was star 3a. A 6th man only because he played on the same team as Rodman and Pippen. He's a 18-7-7 guy on any other team, especially when he figured things out around 1995/1996. He's the only guy who could create his own shot after Pippen and Jordan and was a more natural and effortless scorer than Pip.

EDIT: he also won regular season games when Jordan or Pip didn't have it and everyone remembers the four game winners he nailed as a ROOKIE in 1994, including one in the playoffs.

:lol: Kukoc was NOT a star by any definition/criteria. Come on.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:01 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
This goes back to the incoherence thing - is this about the 1998 season (which is where the title comes from) or is this about the Bulls dynasty (circa 1990-1998)? Is this about Jordan or the entire team? It doesn't fall neatly into any of those categories, which is a major blemish.

I don't understand this point. It's quite clear the documentary is about how Michael Jordan turned one of the worst franchises in sports into one of the best dynasties in the history of sports.


If that's the premise then that's not a documentary.

That's quite clearly the premise. Not sure how it can be interpreted any other way. It's made abundantly clear by the beginning of the first episode and the end of the last episode both playing a clip of young MJ talking about hoping the Bulls can build a program like the Lakers and Celtics.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:04 pm 
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veganfan is mad that "Hoop Dreams" isn't actually about people asleep.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:07 pm 
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Jordan in the first 5 minutes of documentary: Scottie was a great player and a very important part of our 6 championships.

Jordan the rest of the documentary: Let me show you literally every mistake Scottie made in his career while I gloss over his contributions to these 6 championships. LOOK AT STEVE KERR!

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:23 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Jordan in the first 5 minutes of documentary: Scottie was a great player and a very important part of our 6 championships.

Jordan the rest of the documentary: Let me show you literally every mistake Scottie made in his career while I gloss over his contributions to these 6 championships. LOOK AT STEVE KERR!


Greenberg, Jay Williams, Jalen Rose disagreeing on one thing then all agreeing that Jordan dissed Pip in the series.

https://youtu.be/Gx0ednlFjUo

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:26 pm 
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How can 1.8 be portrayed for anything but what it was though? Or Pippen delaying his surgery in order to screw over the team?

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:35 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I'm coming at this from a narrative point of view. If it's about the dynasty then the missed several key pieces, including Kukoc like I already mentioned. It was about Jordan. I don't have a problem saying Jordan is GOAT and the best player in the NBA at the time. I do have a problem when the show dimishes other pieces, presumably at Jordan's direction, while extolling Jordan. That's not a documentary, that's a puff piece. Hope my take doesn't make you think anything less of Michael Jordan when you pray to him before going to bed.
Kukoc was good but let's not make him into some superstar here. He started 20, 15, and 52 games on the 3 Bulls titles he was there for. He averaged 13 ppg every year for those teams.


:lol: Revisionist as hell. Kukoc was star 3a. A 6th man only because he played on the same team as Rodman and Pippen. He's a 18-7-7 guy on any other team, especially when he figured things out around 1995/1996. He's the only guy who could create his own shot after Pippen and Jordan and was a more natural and effortless scorer than Pip.

EDIT: he also won regular season games when Jordan or Pip didn't have it and everyone remembers the four game winners he nailed as a ROOKIE in 1994, including one in the playoffs.

:lol: Kukoc was NOT a star by any definition/criteria. Come on.


I'm fine with fringe star...somewhere below the Reggie Millers and Shawn Kemps of the world but above your average role player. Point forward in a 6-11 frame who could nail six threes, dish out 11 assists, and create his own shot. Below average on D though. He had enough firepower to make up for Jordan and Pippen when they didn't have it during regular season games. Hit clutch shots throughout his career. Interestingly, PJ called for Kukoc to take the last shot against Utah in game five. The play was botched. Jordan took it instead.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:41 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I'm coming at this from a narrative point of view. If it's about the dynasty then the missed several key pieces, including Kukoc like I already mentioned. It was about Jordan. I don't have a problem saying Jordan is GOAT and the best player in the NBA at the time. I do have a problem when the show dimishes other pieces, presumably at Jordan's direction, while extolling Jordan. That's not a documentary, that's a puff piece. Hope my take doesn't make you think anything less of Michael Jordan when you pray to him before going to bed.
Kukoc was good but let's not make him into some superstar here. He started 20, 15, and 52 games on the 3 Bulls titles he was there for. He averaged 13 ppg every year for those teams.


:lol: Revisionist as hell. Kukoc was star 3a. A 6th man only because he played on the same team as Rodman and Pippen. He's a 18-7-7 guy on any other team, especially when he figured things out around 1995/1996. He's the only guy who could create his own shot after Pippen and Jordan and was a more natural and effortless scorer than Pip.

EDIT: he also won regular season games when Jordan or Pip didn't have it and everyone remembers the four game winners he nailed as a ROOKIE in 1994, including one in the playoffs.

:lol: Kukoc was NOT a star by any definition/criteria. Come on.


I'm fine with fringe star...somewhere below the Reggie Millers and Shawn Kemps of the world but above your average role player. Point forward in a 6-11 frame who could nail six threes, dish out 11 assists, and create his own shot. Below average on D though. He had enough firepower to make up for Jordan and Pippen when they didn't have it during regular season games. Hit clutch shots throughout his career. Interestingly, PJ called for Kukoc to take the last shot against Utah in game five. The play was botched. Jordan took it instead.

He's not even in the same galaxy as Reggie Miller or Shawn Kemp. You're pumping him up into something he never was.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:43 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I'm coming at this from a narrative point of view. If it's about the dynasty then the missed several key pieces, including Kukoc like I already mentioned. It was about Jordan. I don't have a problem saying Jordan is GOAT and the best player in the NBA at the time. I do have a problem when the show dimishes other pieces, presumably at Jordan's direction, while extolling Jordan. That's not a documentary, that's a puff piece. Hope my take doesn't make you think anything less of Michael Jordan when you pray to him before going to bed.
Kukoc was good but let's not make him into some superstar here. He started 20, 15, and 52 games on the 3 Bulls titles he was there for. He averaged 13 ppg every year for those teams.


:lol: Revisionist as hell. Kukoc was star 3a. A 6th man only because he played on the same team as Rodman and Pippen. He's a 18-7-7 guy on any other team, especially when he figured things out around 1995/1996. He's the only guy who could create his own shot after Pippen and Jordan and was a more natural and effortless scorer than Pip.

EDIT: he also won regular season games when Jordan or Pip didn't have it and everyone remembers the four game winners he nailed as a ROOKIE in 1994, including one in the playoffs.

:lol: Kukoc was NOT a star by any definition/criteria. Come on.


I'm fine with fringe star...somewhere below the Reggie Millers and Shawn Kemps of the world but above your average role player. Point forward in a 6-11 frame who could nail six threes, dish out 11 assists, and create his own shot. Below average on D though. He had enough firepower to make up for Jordan and Pippen when they didn't have it during regular season games. Hit clutch shots throughout his career. Interestingly, PJ called for Kukoc to take the last shot against Utah in game five. The play was botched. Jordan took it instead.

He's not even in the same galaxy as Reggie Miller or Shawn Kemp. You're pumping him up into something he never was.


i agree that he's not in the same league as Miller or Kemp, but 'fringe star' seems like a fair assessment


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:47 pm 
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Seems overly generous to me. He was a role player. He was a good role player. Seems to me he's become overrated over time. I've watched a lot of the late 90's Bulls broadcasts over the last 2 months. Dude disappears quite often.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:49 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Nas wrote:
Jordan in the first 5 minutes of documentary: Scottie was a great player and a very important part of our 6 championships.

Jordan the rest of the documentary: Let me show you literally every mistake Scottie made in his career while I gloss over his contributions to these 6 championships. LOOK AT STEVE KERR!


Greenberg, Jay Williams, Jalen Rose disagreeing on one thing then all agreeing that Jordan dissed Pip in the series.

https://youtu.be/Gx0ednlFjUo


That was perfect

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:49 pm 
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Bagels wrote:

i agree that he's not in the same league as Miller or Kemp, but 'fringe star' seems like a fair assessment


I also said he's below Miller and Kemp. That couldn't be any clearer, FF. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:51 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I'm coming at this from a narrative point of view. If it's about the dynasty then the missed several key pieces, including Kukoc like I already mentioned. It was about Jordan. I don't have a problem saying Jordan is GOAT and the best player in the NBA at the time. I do have a problem when the show dimishes other pieces, presumably at Jordan's direction, while extolling Jordan. That's not a documentary, that's a puff piece. Hope my take doesn't make you think anything less of Michael Jordan when you pray to him before going to bed.
Kukoc was good but let's not make him into some superstar here. He started 20, 15, and 52 games on the 3 Bulls titles he was there for. He averaged 13 ppg every year for those teams.


:lol: Revisionist as hell. Kukoc was star 3a. A 6th man only because he played on the same team as Rodman and Pippen. He's a 18-7-7 guy on any other team, especially when he figured things out around 1995/1996. He's the only guy who could create his own shot after Pippen and Jordan and was a more natural and effortless scorer than Pip.

EDIT: he also won regular season games when Jordan or Pip didn't have it and everyone remembers the four game winners he nailed as a ROOKIE in 1994, including one in the playoffs.

:lol: Kukoc was NOT a star by any definition/criteria. Come on.


I'm fine with fringe star...somewhere below the Reggie Millers and Shawn Kemps of the world but above your average role player. Point forward in a 6-11 frame who could nail six threes, dish out 11 assists, and create his own shot. Below average on D though. He had enough firepower to make up for Jordan and Pippen when they didn't have it during regular season games. Hit clutch shots throughout his career. Interestingly, PJ called for Kukoc to take the last shot against Utah in game five. The play was botched. Jordan took it instead.


Where did you get this from?

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:53 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Bagels wrote:

i agree that he's not in the same league as Miller or Kemp, but 'fringe star' seems like a fair assessment


I also said he's below Miller and Kemp. That couldn't be any clearer, FF. :lol:

You did. It was amusing you brought them up in the first place as a comparison.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:05 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Bagels wrote:

i agree that he's not in the same league as Miller or Kemp, but 'fringe star' seems like a fair assessment


I also said he's below Miller and Kemp. That couldn't be any clearer, FF. :lol:

You did. It was amusing you brought them up in the first place as a comparison.


That's not a comparison, that's setting the terms of the debate. I see things in hierarchies:

Franchise: MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, etc,
Stars: Pippen, Miller, Payton, Ewing, Hill, Kemp, Penny, etc.
All-Stars: Rice, Steve Smith, Tim Hardaway, Mutombo, etc.

I'd place Kukoc below those levels but above the Steve Kerrs of the world.

EDIT: He was good enough to flirt with the all-star level. Hence "fringe"

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:07 pm 
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You think MJ and David Robinson are in the same hierarchy? lol

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:08 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
You think MJ and David Robinson are in the same hierarchy? lol


Don't read too much into that, you know what I mean.

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I just like busting your balls.

We just disagree on Kukoc. I've always thought of him as a role player and to me that memory holds up rewatching a lot of these games.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:18 pm 
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Nas wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I'm coming at this from a narrative point of view. If it's about the dynasty then the missed several key pieces, including Kukoc like I already mentioned. It was about Jordan. I don't have a problem saying Jordan is GOAT and the best player in the NBA at the time. I do have a problem when the show dimishes other pieces, presumably at Jordan's direction, while extolling Jordan. That's not a documentary, that's a puff piece. Hope my take doesn't make you think anything less of Michael Jordan when you pray to him before going to bed.
Kukoc was good but let's not make him into some superstar here. He started 20, 15, and 52 games on the 3 Bulls titles he was there for. He averaged 13 ppg every year for those teams.


:lol: Revisionist as hell. Kukoc was star 3a. A 6th man only because he played on the same team as Rodman and Pippen. He's a 18-7-7 guy on any other team, especially when he figured things out around 1995/1996. He's the only guy who could create his own shot after Pippen and Jordan and was a more natural and effortless scorer than Pip.

EDIT: he also won regular season games when Jordan or Pip didn't have it and everyone remembers the four game winners he nailed as a ROOKIE in 1994, including one in the playoffs.

:lol: Kukoc was NOT a star by any definition/criteria. Come on.


I'm fine with fringe star...somewhere below the Reggie Millers and Shawn Kemps of the world but above your average role player. Point forward in a 6-11 frame who could nail six threes, dish out 11 assists, and create his own shot. Below average on D though. He had enough firepower to make up for Jordan and Pippen when they didn't have it during regular season games. Hit clutch shots throughout his career. Interestingly, PJ called for Kukoc to take the last shot against Utah in game five. The play was botched. Jordan took it instead.


Where did you get this from?


From Jackson himself:

I actually diagrammed the last play of the game for Toni Kukoc, who had shot 11-for-13 from the field. As much as I wanted Michael to have that crowning glory, I figured it was a wonderful time to use him as a decoy. And Michael wasn't bothered by that. But the Jazz threw Greg Ostertag on Ron Harper when he inbounded, and Harp couldn't see. I might have used Pippen, because he's taller, but he had fouled out and I had nobody else tall who was used to doing it. So Harper got the ball to Michael.

Michael had that off-balance three-point shot from the right corner to win it. Not a great shot, but a shot. Afterward, he talked about how much he enjoyed that. It was a Hail Mary shot, and he had a very Zen-like comment about it. He said the moment was "cute." He was the mistress of the moment, and he was fascinated by it. If that had been the winning shot, it would have been like cheating the Devil, or God. For him to go right on to another chapter, another critical game, was remarkable.


https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/M ... ne-archive

More evidence Kukoc was more than a role player. You don't diagram a shot for a role player in a finals-clinching moment. 11/13 in game 5 of the finals.

#morethanaroleplayer

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:26 pm 
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I'm not trying to be mean, but it seems like Vegan can suck the life out of any basketball discussion, it goes to the pleasure level of getting a filling at the dentist. Anyone else agree?


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:27 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
I'm not trying to be mean, but it seems like Vegan can suck the life out of any basketball discussion, it goes to the pleasure level of getting a filling at the dentist. Anyone else agree?

Wisemen should lock vegan in a NBA thread with LTG, and never let them out.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:27 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
I'm not trying to be mean, but it seems like Vegan can suck the life out of any basketball discussion, it goes to the pleasure level of getting a filling at the dentist. Anyone else agree?

I do not agree. He's one of my favorite NBA posters because of his ridiculous takes.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:27 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
I just like busting your balls.

We just disagree on Kukoc. I've always thought of him as a role player and to me that memory holds up rewatching a lot of these games.


Here are the pure statistical comps for Kukoc from basketball reference. Aside from O'neal who for a short time was a legit star, Randolph as well, and maybe Coleman who was also good before my time, I can't see how you would say Kukoc doesn't belong in this class of players.

Toni Kukoč
Zach Randolph
Donyell Marshall
Jermaine O'Neal
Nenê Hilário
Corey Maggette
Danny Manning
Mickey Johnson
Tayshaun Prince
Derrick Coleman
Nick Anderson

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... cto01.html

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:27 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
I'm not trying to be mean, but it seems like Vegan can suck the life out of any basketball discussion, it goes to the pleasure level of getting a filling at the dentist. Anyone else agree?

Wisemen should lock vegan in a NBA thread with LTG, and never let them out.

One of them would end up pregnant.


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