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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:39 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Rick I didn't ask whether someone should resist arrest, my question presupposed resisting arrest. How long does someone get to resist lawful arrest before extra force is acceptable in completing said arrest?
"Extra force" should only be used if there is a serious risk of harm to the officers or the public in general.

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:40 am 
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I'm sorry he didn't enjoy his arrest. He can speak with manager if he was upset with his customer service experience, thank you for eating at Chili's.


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:41 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Rick I didn't ask whether someone should resist arrest, my question presupposed resisting arrest. How long does someone get to resist lawful arrest before extra force is acceptable in completing said arrest?
"Extra force" should only be used if there is a serious risk of harm to the officers or the public in general.
So a resisting suspect gets to resist for as long as they can hold out. Interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:41 am 
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When I see pictures like that business it makes me wonder why people are still trying to insist that this is about the police or quibble about the latest video from Minneapolis about a bad arrest. We are in a fight for the maintenance of our civilization right now. Could you imagine what it's like to deal with people who are doing this?

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:43 am 
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Post from local PD last night said looters are now taking uhauls to the suburbs to transport more looters , start hitting the subdivisions , torching houses . That should make things interesting .

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:45 am 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Post from local PD last night said looters are now taking uhauls to the suburbs to transport more looters , start hitting the subdivisions , torching houses . That should make things interesting .
DAMN those white supremacists!

And what kind of bullshit is this that I have to buy a license to buy/own/possess a firearm in this piece of shit state?


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:47 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Rick I didn't ask whether someone should resist arrest, my question presupposed resisting arrest. How long does someone get to resist lawful arrest before extra force is acceptable in completing said arrest?
"Extra force" should only be used if there is a serious risk of harm to the officers or the public in general.
So a resisting suspect gets to resist for as long as they can hold out. Interesting.
I don't know what you are referring to here but it's pretty obvious that there are limits on what a police officer should do to a resisting suspect who isn't causing a serious danger to the officers or the public.

Get him handcuffed. Call in more cops to help. Use the standard ways that certainly wouldn't include punching them in the back. Charge them with the crime of resisting arrest afterwards.

Even you called it "extra force" here so you know this is true.

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:47 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
I can't put a number on how many blows are allowed, every situation is different. Generally speaking, though, I think officers are allowed to reasonably escalate the use of force to effectuate the arrest of a resisting suspect—and who knows, maybe striking the guy's shoulder isn't actually an escalation of force from wrenching on his arm. This doesn't mean that they can just start wailing on a guy's skull, but strikes to the areas of the body the suspect is using to resist (legs kicking, arms flailing, hands clutching, etc.) seems reasonable to bring about the arrest
So punching a suspect in the back who is already on the ground and is causing no threat to you is ok.
I think officers are allowed to reasonably escalate the use of force to effectuate the arrest of a resisting suspect.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Now, how long does someone get to resist arrest? Forever?
A suspect shouldn't resist arrest.

Rick I didn't ask whether someone should resist arrest, my question presupposed resisting arrest. How long does someone get to resist lawful arrest before extra force is acceptable in completing said arrest?

Juicy, I really don't want to go back and read through 12 pages of bullshit to find out, so can you direct me to where you discussed Posse Comitatus last night? Thanks for being a peach.

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:48 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
I can't put a number on how many blows are allowed, every situation is different. Generally speaking, though, I think officers are allowed to reasonably escalate the use of force to effectuate the arrest of a resisting suspect—and who knows, maybe striking the guy's shoulder isn't actually an escalation of force from wrenching on his arm. This doesn't mean that they can just start wailing on a guy's skull, but strikes to the areas of the body the suspect is using to resist (legs kicking, arms flailing, hands clutching, etc.) seems reasonable to bring about the arrest
So punching a suspect in the back who is already on the ground and is causing no threat to you is ok.
I think officers are allowed to reasonably escalate the use of force to effectuate the arrest of a resisting suspect.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Now, how long does someone get to resist arrest? Forever?
A suspect shouldn't resist arrest.

Rick I didn't ask whether someone should resist arrest, my question presupposed resisting arrest. How long does someone get to resist lawful arrest before extra force is acceptable in completing said arrest?

Do you not accept the premise that cops knock people around even when they are not resisting? George Floyd is just a part of the larger issue that's never been addressed. Thuggery, unprofessionalism, and twisting the training book for their own purposes.


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:51 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Peoria Matt wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
How long should a suspect be allowed to resist lawful arrest?
You didn't answer the question. Is the standard so low that we think it's alright for a police officer to repeatedly punch a suspect in the back who is laying on the ground?
How long does a suspect get to resist lawful arrest?


His left arm is being kneeled on THE ENTIRE VIDEO. He fights with his right arm for about 30 seconds then the cop is just holding it while the guy is being punched repeatedly in the back.
That took way too long. Thank you for agreeing with me that he was resisting arrest. You can go.


And how does he put his left arm back while it's being kneeled on. His partner clearly had control of his right arm after 30 seconds but for some reason his other arm is kneeled on while he is being punched in the back. Feel free to address that and you can go.


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:54 am 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Post from local PD last night said looters are now taking uhauls to the suburbs to transport more looters , start hitting the subdivisions , torching houses . That should make things interesting .


thank god i have insurance


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:57 am 
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Bagels wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Post from local PD last night said looters are now taking uhauls to the suburbs to transport more looters , start hitting the subdivisions , torching houses . That should make things interesting .


thank god i have insurance


Burbank and Oak Lawn cops have been chasing and arresting people non stop for last 48 hours or so. There has been minimal damage so far. I guess it was seen yesterday on 79th and Cicero as the Chicago side was being looted and the Burbank side was cops.

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:01 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I don't know what you are referring to here but it's pretty obvious that there are limits on what a police officer should do to a resisting suspect who isn't causing a serious danger to the officers or the public.


Nobody has argued that there are no limits.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Get him handcuffed.
Ah yes, just handcuff the resisting suspect. Why don't they teach that at the academy? The course could be called "Just get him handcuffed". Brilliant, Rick!

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Call in more cops to help.
6o0 pOuNdS oF oFfIcErS


Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Use the standard ways
You mean like trying to take the suspect's arm and place it behind his back, the exact maneuver that is being resisted?

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Charge them with the crime of resisting arrest afterwards.
After what? They're still not arrested yet. All you've done here is just say "well they should just arrest the resisting suspect."

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Even you called it "extra force" here so you know this is true.
It is "extra" only because to pull on someone's arm while they're resisting is, to me, using force. I have no idea whether that is technically a "use of force" as the phrase is used in policing. So moving from pulling on the arm of a resisting suspect to striking what is being used to resist may not be an abject "escalation of force".


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:01 am 
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Good.


Yeah the whole wearing masks thing seems like not such a good idea right now especially if the firing starts.



Gee, you think? How is our masked society working out so far?


I called this. Not the protests, but all criminals looking alike.

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:03 am 
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After perusing all the information on across the internet, tv and real world, you might be surprised to learn that I don't have the answer.

I'd start with something that would seem to be easy, like a justice department level, academic discussion on police reforms and a concerted implementation of the conclusions.

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:06 am 
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Peoria Matt wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Peoria Matt wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
How long should a suspect be allowed to resist lawful arrest?
You didn't answer the question. Is the standard so low that we think it's alright for a police officer to repeatedly punch a suspect in the back who is laying on the ground?
How long does a suspect get to resist lawful arrest?


His left arm is being kneeled on THE ENTIRE VIDEO. He fights with his right arm for about 30 seconds then the cop is just holding it while the guy is being punched repeatedly in the back.
That took way too long. Thank you for agreeing with me that he was resisting arrest. You can go.


And how does he put his left arm back while it's being kneeled on. His partner clearly had control of his right arm after 30 seconds but for some reason his other arm is kneeled on while he is being punched in the back. Feel free to address that and you can go.
This is nonsense, the officer is obviously trying to pull on the right arm, and the guy is resisting the pulling, for the entirety of the time the two are locked up. At no point does the guy surrender control of his arm. I have no idea where you're getting this notion that the other officer is clearly kneeling on the guy's arm, the video is gone now but I couldn't see it from the angle of the video.


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:08 am 
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Nothing Juicy? This should be right up your alley.

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:12 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I don't know what you are referring to here but it's pretty obvious that there are limits on what a police officer should do to a resisting suspect who isn't causing a serious danger to the officers or the public.


Nobody has argued that there are no limits.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Get him handcuffed.
Ah yes, just handcuff the resisting suspect. Why don't they teach that at the academy? The course could be called "Just get him handcuffed". Brilliant, Rick!

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Call in more cops to help.
6o0 pOuNdS oF oFfIcErS


Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Use the standard ways
You mean like trying to take the suspect's arm and place it behind his back, the exact maneuver that is being resisted?

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Charge them with the crime of resisting arrest afterwards.
After what? They're still not arrested yet. All you've done here is just say "well they should just arrest the resisting suspect."

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Even you called it "extra force" here so you know this is true.
It is "extra" only because to pull on someone's arm while they're resisting is, to me, using force. I have no idea whether that is technically a "use of force" as the phrase is used in policing. So moving from pulling on the arm of a resisting suspect to striking what is being used to resist may not be an abject "escalation of force".

Ok. You stick on the side of it being acceptable to repeatedly punch a suspect in the back who is on the ground. I'll take the other side.

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:13 am 
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B Mac wrote:
Nothing Juicy? This should be right up your alley.
Sorry, last night instead of brushing up on posse comitatus I was practicing coitus interruptus with your mom.


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:13 am 
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conns7901 wrote:
Bagels wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
Post from local PD last night said looters are now taking uhauls to the suburbs to transport more looters , start hitting the subdivisions , torching houses . That should make things interesting .


thank god i have insurance


Burbank and Oak Lawn cops have been chasing and arresting people non stop for last 48 hours or so. There has been minimal damage so far. I guess it was seen yesterday on 79th and Cicero as the Chicago side was being looted and the Burbank side was cops.

Scottsdale Shopping Center....at one time, before I was born, dat place was da sh*t


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:14 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ok. You stick on the side of it being acceptable to repeatedly punch a suspect in the back who is on the ground. I'll take the other side.
I think officers are allowed to reasonably escalate the use of force to effectuate the arrest of a resisting suspect.


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:15 am 
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What was in the video Matt shared?

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:19 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ok. You stick on the side of it being acceptable to repeatedly punch a suspect in the back who is on the ground. I'll take the other side.
I think officers are allowed to reasonably escalate the use of force to effectuate the arrest of a resisting suspect.


Once someone is cuffed behind their back, they are virtually zero threat to any officer (other than maybe spitting). If you are cuffed and still resist, expect a taser.

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:20 am 
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Why didnt they just cuff him ?

https://youtu.be/NjY9WKbMB6c

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:20 am 
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Maybe JLN would change his tune if he were roughed up a bit while his hands were secured behind his back.

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:21 am 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ok. You stick on the side of it being acceptable to repeatedly punch a suspect in the back who is on the ground. I'll take the other side.
I think officers are allowed to reasonably escalate the use of force to effectuate the arrest of a resisting suspect.


Once someone is cuffed behind their back, they are virtually zero threat to any officer (other than maybe spitting). If you are cuffed and still resist, expect a taser.
The guy in the video Rick and I are discussing wasn't cuffed, and was actively resisting arrest with his arms.


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:22 am 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Why didnt they just cuff him ?

https://youtu.be/NjY9WKbMB6c


We had this discussion before and she was dead wrong. Based on her background she shouldn't have even been a cop.

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:23 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Maybe JLN would change his tune if he were roughed up a bit while his hands were secured behind his back.
Where is this coming from? The guy in the video wasn't in cuffs and was clearly using his arms to resist the effort of officers to get him cuffed.


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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:24 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ok. You stick on the side of it being acceptable to repeatedly punch a suspect in the back who is on the ground. I'll take the other side.
I think officers are allowed to reasonably escalate the use of force to effectuate the arrest of a resisting suspect.


Once someone is cuffed behind their back, they are virtually zero threat to any officer (other than maybe spitting). If you are cuffed and still resist, expect a taser.
The guy in the video Rick and I are discussing wasn't cuffed, and was actively resisting arrest with his arms.


He should have been tazed.

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 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:24 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Where is this coming from?
Your posting, your bootlicking, your defending every cop every chance you get, and your pseudo law degree.

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