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FrankDrebin
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:21 am 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
"The guy was assaulting officers with their own LESS THAN LETHAL weapon, you guys!"

Also, "less than lethal" doesn't mean "not deadly". Considering his first assault on the officers in resisting arrest, and the fact that he grabbed and took one of their weapons, THEN assaulted them numerous times with that weapon, even firing it at them, means he posed a threat to the lives of those officers. Stop glossing over what the guy actually did.


What the guy actually did didn't warrant him getting shot in the back. It's really that simple.


The sleeping in the car didn't warrant it...the stealing and pointing of the taser did.


Exactly.

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:21 am 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
"The guy was assaulting officers with their own LESS THAN LETHAL weapon, you guys!"

Also, "less than lethal" doesn't mean "not deadly". Considering his first assault on the officers in resisting arrest, and the fact that he grabbed and took one of their weapons, THEN assaulted them numerous times with that weapon, even firing it at them, means he posed a threat to the lives of those officers. Stop glossing over what the guy actually did.


What the guy actually did didn't warrant him getting shot in the back. It's really that simple.


The sleeping in the car didn't warrant it...the stealing and pointing of the taser did.


If the taser was viewed as a deadly weapon, he never gets the opportunity to run.

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FrankDrebin
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:22 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Nas wrote:
FrankDrebin wrote:
Nas wrote:
FrankDrebin wrote:
denisdman wrote:
I’m not excusing the suspect. I am simply saying he did not need to be shot dead. Just like with high speed chases, there is a point where you let him go. They had his car and knew he was. He would have been caught. The guy was accused of being drunk. It’s not like he was a massive threat to the community.


You have no idea if he would be a threat to the community. He just assaulted two police officers and was trying to run away. What happens if he steals a car and kills someone while drunk driving?


Do you understand what you are saying? Because it's possible that a drunk man running on foot could possibly take a car from someone and kill someone driving, THAT makes it okay for him to be shot in the back. Is that really the world you want to live in? Giving the government license to take a life for something that could happen. Eventually that comes to your door.


He turned and engaged the officer with the taser; that poses a threat to the officer. If he never shoots the taser, then it becomes less clear if the officer was justified in using lethal force.


A taser isn't a deadly weapon.
Oh, so you DO want to talk about threat level? A taser is an incapacitating weapon (which CAN be deadly, don't try to pretend it isn't), and when used on an officer it is an attempt to incapacitate an officer's defenses. That poses a major threat to officer safety, and officers have a right to prevent and neutralize that threat. Same as reaching for a cop's gun during a struggle: Grabbing the cop's gun isn't "deadly", but it is an attempt to neutralize the officer's ability to defend themselves, which in and of itself is a threat.


Yep. People who have never been in law enforcement sadly never understand this.

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The Hawk
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:23 am 
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Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
"The guy was assaulting officers with their own LESS THAN LETHAL weapon, you guys!"

Also, "less than lethal" doesn't mean "not deadly". Considering his first assault on the officers in resisting arrest, and the fact that he grabbed and took one of their weapons, THEN assaulted them numerous times with that weapon, even firing it at them, means he posed a threat to the lives of those officers. Stop glossing over what the guy actually did.


What the guy actually did didn't warrant him getting shot in the back. It's really that simple.


Wait, if the cop had asked the guy to turn around and then shot him in the chest, would that have been okay, then?

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:23 am 
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FrankDrebin wrote:
Nas wrote:
FrankDrebin wrote:
Nas wrote:
FrankDrebin wrote:
denisdman wrote:
I’m not excusing the suspect. I am simply saying he did not need to be shot dead. Just like with high speed chases, there is a point where you let him go. They had his car and knew he was. He would have been caught. The guy was accused of being drunk. It’s not like he was a massive threat to the community.


You have no idea if he would be a threat to the community. He just assaulted two police officers and was trying to run away. What happens if he steals a car and kills someone while drunk driving?


Do you understand what you are saying? Because it's possible that a drunk man running on foot could possibly take a car from someone and kill someone driving, THAT makes it okay for him to be shot in the back. Is that really the world you want to live in? Giving the government license to take a life for something that could happen. Eventually that comes to your door.


He turned and engaged the officer with the taser; that poses a threat to the officer. If he never shoots the taser, then it becomes less clear if the officer was justified in using lethal force.


A taser isn't a deadly weapon. Besides, the officer wasn't running with his service weapon in his hand. He dropped his taser after the guy turned and grabbed his service weapon and fired at the guy's back.


Brooks was hit by the officer's taser and didn't go down. If the officer gets tasered, Brooks can take his weapon.


You're justifying killing ANYONE based purely on a hypothetical.

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FrankDrebin
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:24 am 
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Nas wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
"The guy was assaulting officers with their own LESS THAN LETHAL weapon, you guys!"

Also, "less than lethal" doesn't mean "not deadly". Considering his first assault on the officers in resisting arrest, and the fact that he grabbed and took one of their weapons, THEN assaulted them numerous times with that weapon, even firing it at them, means he posed a threat to the lives of those officers. Stop glossing over what the guy actually did.


What the guy actually did didn't warrant him getting shot in the back. It's really that simple.


The sleeping in the car didn't warrant it...the stealing and pointing of the taser did.


If the taser was viewed as a deadly weapon, he never gets the opportunity to run.


The officer used equal force (his taser); didn't work. He then used the next level of force to neutralize the assailant. That's what the Use of Force model instructs an officer to do.

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Juice's Lecture Notes
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:26 am 
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Nas wrote:
A violent struggle he instigated by sleeping in his car?
He instigated the violent struggle when he violently resisted arrest, come on Nas, I didn't think you could be this much of an asshole.

Nas wrote:
Why didn't one of the officers immediately kill him when he took the taser?
Contrary to what you may like to believe, I don't think there are MANY cops that actively want to kill people. I know that suits the narrative you define yourself by, but it doesn't fit with reality.

Nas wrote:
He didn't pose a deadly threat to them that's why.
Of course he posed a threat. Arming yourself during a violent struggle with police poses a threat to the police. If we get into a fist fight, and I pick up a baseball bat, does the bat magically not pose a threat to you somehow?

Nas wrote:
That didn't change while he was running.
He turned and pointed the weapon at the officer pursuing him! That marked the second time he assaulted the officers with the weapon he took from them during the violent struggle he started. You really are trying to excuse that guy's actions, aren't you?
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Hussra
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:28 am 
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FrankDrebin wrote:

Brooks was hit by the officer's taser and didn't go down. If the officer gets tasered, Brooks can take his weapon.


you seem to have some personal knowledge of law enforcement type stuff, would a taser even be effective against an officer wearing body armor? Maybe if they caught it on some exposed area.
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Juice's Lecture Notes
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:28 am 
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For all of you defending the guy who took and assaulted police with their own weapon: Do police officers have a right to defend themselves from becoming incapacitated?
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Nas
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:29 am 
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FrankDrebin wrote:
Nas wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
"The guy was assaulting officers with their own LESS THAN LETHAL weapon, you guys!"

Also, "less than lethal" doesn't mean "not deadly". Considering his first assault on the officers in resisting arrest, and the fact that he grabbed and took one of their weapons, THEN assaulted them numerous times with that weapon, even firing it at them, means he posed a threat to the lives of those officers. Stop glossing over what the guy actually did.


What the guy actually did didn't warrant him getting shot in the back. It's really that simple.


The sleeping in the car didn't warrant it...the stealing and pointing of the taser did.


If the taser was viewed as a deadly weapon, he never gets the opportunity to run.


The officer used equal force (his taser); didn't work. He then used the next level of force to neutralize the assailant. That's what the Use of Force model instructs an officer to do.


This simply isn't true. A officer doesn't get to shoot someone in the back because his taser didn't work.

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GoldenJet
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:29 am 
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Hussra wrote:
FrankDrebin wrote:

Brooks was hit by the officer's taser and didn't go down. If the officer gets tasered, Brooks can take his weapon.


you seem to have some personal knowledge of law enforcement type stuff, would a taser even be effective against an officer wearing body armor? Maybe if they caught it on some exposed area.


Coulda got him in the eye.

Kill him.

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Hussra
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:31 am 
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GoldenJet wrote:

Coulda got him in the eye.

Kill him.


tasers and lawn darts
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GoldenJet
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:32 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
For all of you defending the guy who took and assaulted police with their own weapon: Do police officers have a right to defend themselves from becoming incapacitated?


George Zimmerman

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:35 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
For all of you defending the guy who took and assaulted police with their own weapon: Do police officers have a right to defend themselves from becoming incapacitated?


The bar should be high when it comes to an officer using deadly force. Otherwise you're making it okay for the police to kill anyone at pretty much any time. If those officers feared the taser then they would have shot him before he got a chance to run.

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Antarctica
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:37 am 
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if a white person did that it'd end the exact same way, i think we can all agree on that.
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Juice's Lecture Notes
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:39 am 
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Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
For all of you defending the guy who took and assaulted police with their own weapon: Do police officers have a right to defend themselves from becoming incapacitated?


The bar should be high when it comes to an officer using deadly force. Otherwise you're making it okay for the police to kill anyone at pretty much any time. If those officers feared the taser then they would have shot him before he got a chance to run.
The fear of incapacitation is reasonable when the threat grabbed at and took your taser, then turned and aimed it at you multiple times.
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GoldenJet
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:39 am 
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Antarctica wrote:
if a white person did that it'd end the exact same way, i think we can all agree on that.


:D

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conns7901
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:41 am 
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Antarctica wrote:
if a white person did that it'd end the exact same way, i think we can all agree on that.


I don't think people will agree with that statement. I don't think it makes the news though if they do shoot a white guy.

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Nardi
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:42 am 
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How about not arresting him at all? Will MADD get mad? He was parked. He knew enough to park and sleep it off. Long time ago, there was a good chance a cop would drive you home.
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Jaw Breaker
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:42 am 
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Antarctica wrote:
if a white person did that it'd end the exact same way, i think we can all agree on that.


Though the Wendy's probably doesn't get burned down.

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Antarctica
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:42 am 
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Let's be real, anyone who says he was killed for "sleeping in his car at a Wendy's parking lot" is being a little untruthful to make this shooting appear arbitrary.
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GoldenJet
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:43 am 
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Nardi wrote:
How about not arresting him at all? Will MADD get mad? He was parked. He knew enough to park and sleep it off. Long time ago, there was a good chance a cop would drive you home.


That would be a privilege reserved for white people.

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GoldenJet
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:44 am 
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Antarctica wrote:
Let's be real, anyone who says he was killed for "sleeping in his car at a Wendy's parking lot" is being a little untruthful to make this shooting appear arbitrary.


True, had he remained asleep, he'd be wrapping up a hangover this morning.

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conns7901
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:45 am 
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GoldenJet wrote:
Nardi wrote:
How about not arresting him at all? Will MADD get mad? He was parked. He knew enough to park and sleep it off. Long time ago, there was a good chance a cop would drive you home.


That would be a privilege reserved for white people.


And Chicago athletes.

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conns7901 wrote:
Not over yet.
Yes it is.


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When this is all over, which is not going to be for a while, Trump will be re-elected President.


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Nas
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:45 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
For all of you defending the guy who took and assaulted police with their own weapon: Do police officers have a right to defend themselves from becoming incapacitated?


The bar should be high when it comes to an officer using deadly force. Otherwise you're making it okay for the police to kill anyone at pretty much any time. If those officers feared the taser then they would have shot him before he got a chance to run.
The fear of incapacitation is reasonable when the threat grabbed at and took your taser, then turned and aimed it at you multiple times.


Fear of being incapacitated? Really? Just by your physical presence an officer can shoot you then. If both officers feared the taser there is no chance he gets to run.

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SpiralStairs
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:46 am 
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Have we solved racism yet? No? Oh well carry on I guess everyone. See you in a few days where we discuss this exact same scenario again and no one's mind is ever changed.

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:46 am 
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conns7901 wrote:
GoldenJet wrote:
Nardi wrote:
How about not arresting him at all? Will MADD get mad? He was parked. He knew enough to park and sleep it off. Long time ago, there was a good chance a cop would drive you home.


That would be a privilege reserved for white people.


And Chicago athletes.


And top cops

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Antarctica
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:47 am 
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Nardi wrote:
How about not arresting him at all? Will MADD get mad? He was parked. He knew enough to park and sleep it off. Long time ago, there was a good chance a cop would drive you home.

This is where it gets to be extraordinarily unfair on police officers. There is this grey area where people expect cops not the enforce the laws that are on the books because the laws on the books are ridiculous. Instead of going after the elected legislators who wrote the laws they go after middle class societal garbagemen trying to implement them.

Either way, this guy was clearly hostile and if you're trying to get away with something we all know that truthfulness and cordiality are the paths to a police officers heart if you're caught. If you wanna get away with things, play the game. If you wanna have a freakout then just expect the law to be enforced.
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Juice's Lecture Notes
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:51 am 
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Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
For all of you defending the guy who took and assaulted police with their own weapon: Do police officers have a right to defend themselves from becoming incapacitated?


The bar should be high when it comes to an officer using deadly force. Otherwise you're making it okay for the police to kill anyone at pretty much any time. If those officers feared the taser then they would have shot him before he got a chance to run.
The fear of incapacitation is reasonable when the threat grabbed at and took your taser, then turned and aimed it at you multiple times.


Fear of being incapacitated? Really?
I already explained this to you:

Quote:
A taser is an incapacitating weapon (which CAN be deadly, don't try to pretend it isn't), and when used on an officer it is an attempt to incapacitate an officer's defenses. That poses a major threat to officer safety, and officers have a right to prevent and neutralize that threat. Same as reaching for a cop's gun during a struggle: Grabbing the cop's gun isn't "deadly", but it is an attempt to neutralize the officer's ability to defend themselves, which in and of itself is a threat.
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SpiralStairs
 Post subject: Re: I Can't Breathe II
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:52 am 
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Great job everyone keep up the good work. What you're doing here matters in a big way!

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