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Nardi
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:04 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
BigW72 wrote:
You address playoffs and DH at the next CBA. The owners were absolute morons through all of this. The players should have made this as simple as possible and said, "impose a season schedule starting july 4 with 3 weeks of spring training and we'll be there. Save your other changes for the next CBA".
This would have happened if the players had been willing to sign an agreement saying they won't file a grievance.



If you're so sure they won't win the grievance why worry about that?

Owners counted on the players discussing salaries. The kept trying and trying. Now they have a grievance on their hands. Players will hand the board their collective bargaining agreement, the March agreement, the owners proposals and minutes of negotiations and ask "Did we get fucked out of at least 3 weeks of wages"?

The answer is going to be yes.
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Nas
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:09 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
If 60 games was in good faith then 65 shouldn't have been too much of an ask. The players will essentially get 60 games and their prorated salary now. They're giving up nothing additional for that.
They are giving up more playoff money, forgiveness on part of the salary advance they already got, and things about qualifying offers.


IF the players were really losing we would be talking about that. Instead we're having a discussion about how they were unfair to the owners. I can't recall that happening in my life.

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Brick
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:10 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
BigW72 wrote:
You address playoffs and DH at the next CBA. The owners were absolute morons through all of this. The players should have made this as simple as possible and said, "impose a season schedule starting july 4 with 3 weeks of spring training and we'll be there. Save your other changes for the next CBA".
This would have happened if the players had been willing to sign an agreement saying they won't file a grievance.



If you're so sure they won't win the grievance why worry about that?

Owners counted on the players discussing salaries. The kept trying and trying. Now they have a grievance on their hands. Players will hand the board their collective bargaining agreement, the March agreement, the owners proposals and minutes of negotiations and ask "Did we get fucked out of at least 3 weeks of wages"?

The answer is going to be yes.
Then MLB will print out a calendar, and show that the players were considering an offer that was negotiated WITH the union head on June 21st, the players rejected it on June 22nd, and MLB imposed the season based on their timeline of the last offer immediately.

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Brick
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:11 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
If 60 games was in good faith then 65 shouldn't have been too much of an ask. The players will essentially get 60 games and their prorated salary now. They're giving up nothing additional for that.
They are giving up more playoff money, forgiveness on part of the salary advance they already got, and things about qualifying offers.


IF the players were really losing we would be talking about that. Instead we're having a discussion about how they were unfair to the owners. I can't recall that happening in my life.
I think it's only unfair if they file a grievance about it. They had a chance to take what was a good offer.

It's also interesting that the owners are rich enough that they should just accept losing huge money on every game, and then they add 10-12 more games to that and they are still the only ones at fault for this.

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Nardi
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:18 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
BigW72 wrote:
You address playoffs and DH at the next CBA. The owners were absolute morons through all of this. The players should have made this as simple as possible and said, "impose a season schedule starting july 4 with 3 weeks of spring training and we'll be there. Save your other changes for the next CBA".
This would have happened if the players had been willing to sign an agreement saying they won't file a grievance.



If you're so sure they won't win the grievance why worry about that?

Owners counted on the players discussing salaries. The kept trying and trying. Now they have a grievance on their hands. Players will hand the board their collective bargaining agreement, the March agreement, the owners proposals and minutes of negotiations and ask "Did we get fucked out of at least 3 weeks of wages"?

The answer is going to be yes.
Then MLB will print out a calendar, and show that the players were considering an offer that was negotiated WITH the union head on June 21st, the players rejected it on June 22nd, and MLB imposed the season based on their timeline of the last offer immediately.

Of course. Won't change the bad faith argument. It also proves the good faith the players had by after all the shennagins by the owners, they put up their "fucking them out of 3 weeks wages" proposal up to a vote.
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Nas
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:21 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
If 60 games was in good faith then 65 shouldn't have been too much of an ask. The players will essentially get 60 games and their prorated salary now. They're giving up nothing additional for that.
They are giving up more playoff money, forgiveness on part of the salary advance they already got, and things about qualifying offers.


IF the players were really losing we would be talking about that. Instead we're having a discussion about how they were unfair to the owners. I can't recall that happening in my life.
I think it's only unfair if they file a grievance about it. They had a chance to take what was a good offer.

It's also interesting that the owners are rich enough that they should just accept losing huge money on every game, and then they add 10-12 more games to that and they are still the only ones at fault for this.


Why? If the players are wrong then they will lose.

Small business owners everywhere are taking a beating. I'm not going to shed tears for billionaires with multi billion dollar assets.

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Brick
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:22 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Of course. Won't change the bad faith argument. It also proves the good faith the players had by after all the shennagins by the owners, they put up their "fucking them out of 3 weeks wages" proposal up to a vote.
That just makes no sense. The last proposal was a good proposal. I haven't seen anyone argue it wasn't good for both sides. You can't just keep on typing "bad faith" and make it true.

60 games, on the timeline they have, ends the season in the first week of October. The fact that they were trading proposals for 3 weeks can't be held against either side.

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Brick
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:24 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Why? If the players are wrong then they will lose.
It would have been better for everyone to come to an agreement. To reject a good deal so you can file a grievance is wrong. It's not my money they lost out on though.

Nas wrote:
Small business owners everywhere are taking a beating. I'm not going to shed tears for billionaires with multi billion dollar assets.
Are you shedding a tear for all the MLB millionaires?

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Nardi
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:30 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Of course. Won't change the bad faith argument. It also proves the good faith the players had by after all the shennagins by the owners, they put up their "fucking them out of 3 weeks wages" proposal up to a vote.
That just makes no sense. The last proposal was a good proposal. I haven't seen anyone argue it wasn't good for both sides. You can't just keep on typing "bad faith" and make it true.

60 games, on the timeline they have, ends the season in the first week of October. The fact that they were trading proposals for 3 weeks can't be held against either side.

Their first two proposals were a joke meant specifically to run out the clock. In those 2 jokes of proposals, they attempted to re negotiate a CBA. The first time, you take it with a grain of salt. The second time you file a grievance.

A pretty solid grievance, IMO.
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Nas
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:31 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Why? If the players are wrong then they will lose.
It would have been better for everyone to come to an agreement. To reject a good deal so you can file a grievance is wrong. It's not my money they lost out on though.

Nas wrote:
Small business owners everywhere are taking a beating. I'm not going to shed tears for billionaires with multi billion dollar assets.
Are you shedding a tear for all the MLB millionaires?


The players disagree. If they lose then the owners win twice since the players turned down a deal that was allegedly favorable to them.

The percentage of players who are millionaires is very small. I'll side with players in nearly every dispute.

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Brick
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:34 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Of course. Won't change the bad faith argument. It also proves the good faith the players had by after all the shennagins by the owners, they put up their "fucking them out of 3 weeks wages" proposal up to a vote.
That just makes no sense. The last proposal was a good proposal. I haven't seen anyone argue it wasn't good for both sides. You can't just keep on typing "bad faith" and make it true.

60 games, on the timeline they have, ends the season in the first week of October. The fact that they were trading proposals for 3 weeks can't be held against either side.

Their first two proposals were a joke meant specifically to run out the clock. In those 2 jokes of proposals, they attempted to re negotiate a CBA. The first time, you take it with a grain of salt. The second time you file a grievance.

A pretty solid grievance, IMO.

As were the players proposals.

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Hawg Ass
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:36 pm 
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What happened to #WhereandWhen?

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Nardi
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:37 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Of course. Won't change the bad faith argument. It also proves the good faith the players had by after all the shennagins by the owners, they put up their "fucking them out of 3 weeks wages" proposal up to a vote.
That just makes no sense. The last proposal was a good proposal. I haven't seen anyone argue it wasn't good for both sides. You can't just keep on typing "bad faith" and make it true.

60 games, on the timeline they have, ends the season in the first week of October. The fact that they were trading proposals for 3 weeks can't be held against either side.

Their first two proposals were a joke meant specifically to run out the clock. In those 2 jokes of proposals, they attempted to re negotiate a CBA. The first time, you take it with a grain of salt. The second time you file a grievance.

A pretty solid grievance, IMO.

As were the players proposals.

Did they attempt to raise their wages 50%?


Last edited by Nardi on Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Brick
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:38 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Why? If the players are wrong then they will lose.
It would have been better for everyone to come to an agreement. To reject a good deal so you can file a grievance is wrong. It's not my money they lost out on though.

Nas wrote:
Small business owners everywhere are taking a beating. I'm not going to shed tears for billionaires with multi billion dollar assets.
Are you shedding a tear for all the MLB millionaires?


The players disagree. If they lose then the owners win twice since the players turned down a deal that was allegedly favorable to them.

The percentage of players who are millionaires is very small. I'll side with players in nearly every dispute.

Most of the players should be millionaires. The Cubs had 21 players make over a million last year alone.

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HawaiiYou
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:13 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Why? If the players are wrong then they will lose.
It would have been better for everyone to come to an agreement. To reject a good deal so you can file a grievance is wrong. It's not my money they lost out on though.

Nas wrote:
Small business owners everywhere are taking a beating. I'm not going to shed tears for billionaires with multi billion dollar assets.
Are you shedding a tear for all the MLB millionaires?


The players disagree. If they lose then the owners win twice since the players turned down a deal that was allegedly favorable to them.

The percentage of players who are millionaires is very small. I'll side with players in nearly every dispute.

Most of the players should be millionaires. The Cubs had 21 players make over a million last year alone.


Its one thing to be a millionaire and it's another thing to know how to spend that money. Some of these guys want to live the life and spend extravagantly thinking the flow of millions will never stop. I remember a few months ago Tommy Pham who made $4/5million in his 5 year career was complaining about not getting paid hurting him.
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Nas
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:29 pm 
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HawaiiYou wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Why? If the players are wrong then they will lose.
It would have been better for everyone to come to an agreement. To reject a good deal so you can file a grievance is wrong. It's not my money they lost out on though.

Nas wrote:
Small business owners everywhere are taking a beating. I'm not going to shed tears for billionaires with multi billion dollar assets.
Are you shedding a tear for all the MLB millionaires?


The players disagree. If they lose then the owners win twice since the players turned down a deal that was allegedly favorable to them.

The percentage of players who are millionaires is very small. I'll side with players in nearly every dispute.

Most of the players should be millionaires. The Cubs had 21 players make over a million last year alone.


Its one thing to be a millionaire and it's another thing to know how to spend that money. Some of these guys want to live the life and spend extravagantly thinking the flow of millions will never stop. I remember a few months ago Tommy Pham who made $4/5million in his 5 year career was complaining about not getting paid hurting him.


Your lifestyle and expenses adjust based on your salary. Athletes and celebrities aren't the only people guilty of this.

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IMU
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:41 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
IMU wrote:
Players have asked for revenue sharing in past negotiations. Clearly players aren't averse to sharing the upside...they seemingly do not want to share the downside.


That's exactly backward. The owners have never shared revenue in good times and now they want the players to share the downside.

Both sentences are extremely true. Everyone is a bad guy.

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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:45 pm 
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July 24.

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Nas
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:47 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
July 24.


Board outing!

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pittmike
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Nas wrote:
Your lifestyle and expenses adjust based on your salary. Athletes and celebrities aren't the only people guilty of this.


This is one of the truest and least realized things around. Look back 10 years and wonder how the hell did I live on that?

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HawaiiYou
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:30 pm 
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Interesting that since they announced a season nobody outside of baseball diehards gives a shit.


not a big deal on espn or any media sports or non sports.
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blackhawksfan
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:36 pm 
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What are the odds that the season gets cancelled midway through? What is the plan if players get infected?
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Big Chicagoan
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blackhawksfan wrote:
What are the odds that the season gets cancelled midway through? What is the plan if players get infected?


Cross him off, then.


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good dolphin
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:15 am 
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I caught the very tail end of a Mully/Haugh interview with some guy who has a podcast. The guy said something about needing a 25 person pitching staff and they were taking it as gospel. You could combine multiple teams in this league and still not have 25 legitimate MLB pitchers with which to work. Most teams do not even have confidence in the 12-13 they uniform each game during a regular season.

This is one of the problems with podcasts and internet reporting, anyone with the will can have an outlet that gives some kind of imprimatur of expertise. Meanwhile, they are really no different than you or I spinning our tales of bull.

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Hawg Ass
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:26 am 
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The Brewers used 30 last year during the regular season.

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Hussra
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They banned spitting in baseball? That's not baseball

Pitcher has a perfect game going through 9 innings and comes back out for the 10th in a 0-0 game; opposing team gets to put their fastest guy on 2nd to start. Lead off hitter flies out deep to right, runner moves over. Next guy up grounds out to deep short or another deep fly ball, runner scores. If it's the top of the 10th, pitcher gets the next guy out. His team doesn't score in the bottom of the 10th. Game over, perfect game still?
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RFDC
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:20 am 
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I saw a Hahn quote somewhere that really puts things into perspective with such a short season. You are going to win 20. You are going to lose 20. It will come down to what you do with the other 20. That is crazy to think a game such as baseball is going to come down to a 20 game sprint.

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Nardi
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:02 am 
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Hussra wrote:
They banned spitting in baseball? That's not baseball

Pitcher has a perfect game going through 9 innings and comes back out for the 10th in a 0-0 game; opposing team gets to put their fastest guy on 2nd to start. Lead off hitter flies out deep to right, runner moves over. Next guy up grounds out to deep short or another deep fly ball, runner scores. If it's the top of the 10th, pitcher gets the next guy out. His team doesn't score in the bottom of the 10th. Game over, perfect game still?

No.
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Chet Coppock's Fur Coat
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:43 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Hussra wrote:
They banned spitting in baseball? That's not baseball

Pitcher has a perfect game going through 9 innings and comes back out for the 10th in a 0-0 game; opposing team gets to put their fastest guy on 2nd to start. Lead off hitter flies out deep to right, runner moves over. Next guy up grounds out to deep short or another deep fly ball, runner scores. If it's the top of the 10th, pitcher gets the next guy out. His team doesn't score in the bottom of the 10th. Game over, perfect game still?

No.

The forerunner on 2nd is officially scored as an error. Thus, the perfect game ends at that point. It is still a no hitter as he pitched to all batters.

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Curious Hair
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:46 pm 
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I know the runner is an unearned run, does that necessarily mean scoring as if he reached on an error?

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