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Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

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Liberal Lion

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:23 pm

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:52 pm
Posts: 421
pizza_Place: Sanfratellos

FavreFan wrote:

Liberal Lion wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Anyway, more important than "Is _____ tanking" is that we can all acknowledge that tanking is a disgrace to the sport and in a just world would be severely penalized by the leagues.

If people really believe this then the Bulls franchise would be far more reviled than they happen to be.

We celebrate the hell out of those 6 rings and not one person has ever made mention of the tank job that went into achieving it. Until now of course.

That’s because they didn’t tank.

Not one person here has been able to explain how it was that they didn't. I just provided evidence. As I always do. You can continue to make it a theoretical discussion about the "evils" of tanking if you like. I've already debunked it with actual evidence. They tanked.

Last edited by Liberal Lion on Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FavreFan

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:24 pm

Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:17 am
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Location: Palatine
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Liberal Lion wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Liberal Lion wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Anyway, more important than "Is _____ tanking" is that we can all acknowledge that tanking is a disgrace to the sport and in a just world would be severely penalized by the leagues.

That’s because they didn’t tank.

Not one person here has been able to explain how it was that they didn't. I just provided evidence. As I always do. You can continue to make it a theoretical discussion about the "evils" of tanking if you like. I already have debunked it with actual evidence. They tanked.

Rick provided you exactly why it isn't tanking. That you choose to dismiss his explanation doesn't make it any less valid.

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Brick

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:25 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 92041
Location: To the left of my post

Let's say that two weeks ago on the day of the trade deadline the Bears are offered the first round pick of the NY Jets in exchange for Nick Foles. If the Bears accept that trade, are they now tanking?

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Liberal Lion

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:27 pm

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:52 pm
Posts: 421
pizza_Place: Sanfratellos

FavreFan wrote:

Liberal Lion wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Liberal Lion wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Anyway, more important than "Is _____ tanking" is that we can all acknowledge that tanking is a disgrace to the sport and in a just world would be severely penalized by the leagues.

That’s because they didn’t tank.

Not one person here has been able to explain how it was that they didn't. I just provided evidence. As I always do. You can continue to make it a theoretical discussion about the "evils" of tanking if you like. I already have debunked it with actual evidence. They tanked.

Rick provided you exactly why it isn't tanking. That you choose to dismiss his explanation doesn't make it any less valid.

Nah he provided more theories about what constitutes tanking. Again not interested in that. How was this not tanking?

Since you are so convinced that it wasn't?

Last edited by Liberal Lion on Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rogers park bryan

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:28 pm

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81625

FavreFan wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

Brick wrote:

Liberal Lion wrote:

How isn't this tanking?

Tanking involves intentionally losing for 1, but most likely more than 1 season in order to be good some point in the future.

That's a weird definition you have cultivated in an attempt to isolate Theo as the tanker in chief

Tanking: Not trying to win as much as possible because it helps your draft position

Its that simple. If the Bulls reason for trading Theus inuded any reasoning about the draft, it was tanking.

I don't think this is true at all. Rick's definition is a lot closer to the traditional idea of tanking. Trading a veteran who isn't part of your long term plans during a lost season isn't tanking. It's team building. Benching a healthy veteran for the sole purpose of losing a game is tanking.

The traditional definition of tanking is losing games (or making moves to ensure you lose games) to get a higher draft pick.

I will agree you can make trades that make the team worse short term and better long term without it being tanking but only if:

Draft position is not considered
You're still trying to win as many games as possible

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tommy

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:28 pm

Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:33 pm
Posts: 12078
pizza_Place: Vito and Nick's

They were trapped in mediocrity; they didn't tank.

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Liberal Lion

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:29 pm

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:52 pm
Posts: 421
pizza_Place: Sanfratellos

tommy wrote:

They were trapped in mediocrity; they didn't tank.

This is precisely why it happened to be tanking.

They benched and later Traded Theus in order to drastically improve their draft position. Thats tanking.

Last edited by Liberal Lion on Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rogers park bryan

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:31 pm

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81625

FavreFan wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

Brick wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

No, it's not. It's the widely accepted and logical definition.

If you're trying to win every game you are not tanking

So pretty much every NBA team is tanking then every year.

rogers park bryan wrote:

If you don't mind losing because it improves your draft position, its tanking. And most often it's just a one year thing targeting a certain player.

So, it's impossible to have a trade that isn't one side tanking then unless it's perfectly balanced?

If both teams believe it will help them win in the short term then it's not tanking

If amy part of the process involves the benefits of "improving draft position", its tanking

This is very simple stuff

It's not simple. It's absurd. By your definition the Raiders were tanking when they traded Khalil Mack, even though it clearly helped their long term outlook and they were still trying to win games the following year.

It's not absurd, its correct.

The Raiders were still trying to win so itsnit tanking.

You guys are way over complicating this

If you at any point "domt mind losing because it improves draft position" you're tanking.

It's why the NBA lottery exists and why every time an nfl team starts 0-3 the Tank for (insert top college qb) hashtags get going

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Brick

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:33 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 92041
Location: To the left of my post

rogers park bryan wrote:

This is why your definition is way too broad. The only teams with no reason to consider draft position are the ones who think they have a good chance at winning the championship.

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Liberal Lion

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:33 pm

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:52 pm
Posts: 421
pizza_Place: Sanfratellos

Brick wrote:

Let's not actually. Let's stay on the topic of the 1984 Bulls. How was this not tanking?

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Brick

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:34 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 92041
Location: To the left of my post

rogers park bryan wrote:

If you at any point "domt mind losing because it improves draft position" you're tanking.

So, roughly half the league is tanking every year in every sport then. :lol:

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Brick

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:35 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 92041
Location: To the left of my post

Liberal Lion wrote:

Brick wrote:

Let's not actually. Let's stay on the topic of the 1984 Bulls. How was this not tanking?

They entered the season trying to win. They ended up figuring out that they just weren't that good and got value for a player instead of wasting his talents on a team going nowhere.

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rogers park bryan

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:35 pm

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81625

FavreFan wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

Brick wrote:

Liberal Lion wrote:

You're wrong. With tanking teams aren't even making an attempt to try and win. It has nothing to do with whether it spans 1 or 2 seasons.

The Bulls first benched then traded their best player for absolutely nothing that season. They were in contention for a playoff spot at the time they traded him.

They received nothing in return. Steve Johnson was a bum and everyone knew that he was a bum. The Bulls gave up on the season early on so that they could improve their draft position. Thats tanking.

The Bulls entered that season trying to win, discovered that wasn't going to happen, and made a trade to correct that for future seasons..

Did it have anything to do with improving draft position? If yes, then tanking.

This is ridiculous.

You're ridiculous, it's the absolute truth

You're either trying to win or you're tanking.

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Liberal Lion

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:35 pm

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:52 pm
Posts: 421
pizza_Place: Sanfratellos

Brick wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

This is why your definition is way too broad. The only teams with no reason to consider draft position are the ones who think they have a good chance at winning the championship.

Now you aren't making sense. Typically teams (regardless of sport) that are in position to make the playoffs make moves which will help them make the playoffs. They don't bench All Star players and trade them for stiffs. The Bulls did in 1984. Thats why its a no doubt tank job.

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rogers park bryan

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:36 pm

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81625

Brick wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

If you at any point "domt mind losing because it improves draft position" you're tanking.

So, roughly half the league is tanking every year in every sport then. :lol:

Yes, are you kidding? There's articles constantly how ots ruining sports

You're either trying to win or you're tanking. That's it.

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FavreFan

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:37 pm

Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:17 am
Posts: 72380
Location: Palatine
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rogers park bryan wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

Brick wrote:

Liberal Lion wrote:

How isn't this tanking?

Tanking involves intentionally losing for 1, but most likely more than 1 season in order to be good some point in the future.

I disagree. Draft position is considered in every single transaction a team makes. GMs are always thinking about short and long term.

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rogers park bryan

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:37 pm

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81625

Brick wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

This is why your definition is way too broad. The only teams with no reason to consider draft position are the ones who think they have a good chance at winning the championship.

You can consider draft position while still attempting to win.

If you're not trying to win and you're trying to improve draft position above winning, you are tanking.

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rogers park bryan

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:38 pm

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81625

FavreFan wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

Brick wrote:

Liberal Lion wrote:

How isn't this tanking?

Tanking involves intentionally losing for 1, but most likely more than 1 season in order to be good some point in the future.

I disagree. Draft position is considered in every single transaction a team makes. GMs are always thinking about short and long term.

Agreed but they can still be trying to win

Once future wins are prioritized over current wins, you're tanking

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Liberal Lion

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:39 pm

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:52 pm
Posts: 421
pizza_Place: Sanfratellos

Brick wrote:

Liberal Lion wrote:

Brick wrote:

Let's not actually. Let's stay on the topic of the 1984 Bulls. How was this not tanking?

They entered the season trying to win. They ended up figuring out that they just weren't that good and got value for a player instead of wasting his talents on a team going nowhere.

Steve Johnson was never considered valuable by anyone. You claimed that this wasn't tanking and have yet to provide an explanation as to why it wasn't.

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Brick

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:40 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 92041
Location: To the left of my post

Liberal Lion wrote:

The Bulls seemingly decided they weren't good enough to compete with the better teams in the league. Was that the right decision or not?

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Liberal Lion

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:41 pm

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:52 pm
Posts: 421
pizza_Place: Sanfratellos

rogers park bryan wrote:

Once future wins are prioritized over current wins, you're tanking

Yep.

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Brick

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:41 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 92041
Location: To the left of my post

rogers park bryan wrote:

You can consider draft position while still attempting to win.

If you're not trying to win and you're trying to improve draft position above winning, you are tanking.

How can you consider draft position while still attempting to win when they two results are the complete opposite?

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tommy

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:42 pm

Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:33 pm
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Liberal Lion wrote:

tommy wrote:

They were trapped in mediocrity; they didn't tank.

This is precisely why it happened to be tanking.

They benched and later Traded Theus in order to drastically improve their draft position. Thats tanking.

Oh, ok. I can see your point.

But the other guys wore out. David Greenwood was a star who just stopped producing. And Woolridge and Daily just started sucking, too. The guys who were supposed to be good weren't.

Who was talking about Steve Johnson? That fatass sucked balls.

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Brick

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:44 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 92041
Location: To the left of my post

Liberal Lion wrote:

Brick wrote:

Liberal Lion wrote:

Brick wrote:

Let's not actually. Let's stay on the topic of the 1984 Bulls. How was this not tanking?

They entered the season trying to win. They ended up figuring out that they just weren't that good and got value for a player instead of wasting his talents on a team going nowhere.

Steve Johnson was never considered valuable by anyone. You claimed that this wasn't tanking and have yet to provide an explanation as to why it wasn't.

The value was in the 3 extra draft picks they got.

I guess the big question though is how good was Reggie Theus if you are correct that the Bulls got nothing in return for him?

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Liberal Lion

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:44 pm

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:52 pm
Posts: 421
pizza_Place: Sanfratellos

Brick wrote:

Liberal Lion wrote:

The Bulls seemingly decided they weren't good enough to compete with the better teams in the league. Was that the right decision or not?

Sure it was because it placed them in position to draft Jordan.

My point is related to guys like Favre that constantly bash the concept of tanking all of the time. His and others constant claims that Tanking doesn't work is utterly foolish

The 6 rings obtained by the Bulls are the result of tanking and nothing else.

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rogers park bryan

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:46 pm

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81625

Brick wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

You can consider draft position while still attempting to win.

If you're not trying to win and you're trying to improve draft position above winning, you are tanking.

How can you consider draft position while still attempting to win when they two results are the complete opposite?

Because you can trade for more picks or future picks while still trying to win.

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FavreFan

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:47 pm

Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:17 am
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Location: Palatine
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rogers park bryan wrote:

Brick wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

If you at any point "domt mind losing because it improves draft position" you're tanking.

So, roughly half the league is tanking every year in every sport then. :lol:

Yes, are you kidding? There's articles constantly how ots ruining sports

You're either trying to win or you're tanking. That's it.

Your last statement is obviously true but it’s irrelevant to this discussion since we are trying to determine what tanking is.

Are the Bengals tanking this year?

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Brick

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:48 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 92041
Location: To the left of my post

rogers park bryan wrote:

Brick wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

You can consider draft position while still attempting to win.

If you're not trying to win and you're trying to improve draft position above winning, you are tanking.

How can you consider draft position while still attempting to win when they two results are the complete opposite?

Because you can trade for more picks or future picks while still trying to win.

You would have to really fleece the other team to not only get draft picks from them but also improve your team for the next game too.

Still though, the entire concept of considering draft position indicates that you would rather not improve the team in a trade for the current year.

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rogers park bryan

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:48 pm

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81625

FavreFan wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

Brick wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

If you at any point "domt mind losing because it improves draft position" you're tanking.

So, roughly half the league is tanking every year in every sport then. :lol:

Yes, are you kidding? There's articles constantly how ots ruining sports

You're either trying to win or you're tanking. That's it.

Your last statement is obviously true but it’s irrelevant to this discussion since we are trying to determine what tanking is.

Are the Bengals tanking this year?

I haven't followed it closely. Are they attempting to win as many games as possible?

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rogers park bryan

Post subject: Re: Bulls tanked in order to draft Jordan

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:50 pm

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81625

Brick wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

Brick wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

You can consider draft position while still attempting to win.

If you're not trying to win and you're trying to improve draft position above winning, you are tanking.

How can you consider draft position while still attempting to win when they two results are the complete opposite?

Because you can trade for more picks or future picks while still trying to win.

You would have to really fleece the other team to not only get draft picks from them but also improve your team for the next game too.

Not really. You can trade potential stars who maybe arent helping you win right now for draft picks. You can trade future picks for this year's draft. You can trade a good player because you're deep at the position and feel like you can win just as much without them.

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