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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:57 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Brick wrote:
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Brick wrote:
I don't really see how interesting this article really is though.

Let's say that someone wins the lottery and has 10 years to turn in the ticket worth $500 million. He can keep that ticket locked away for years and pay no tax on it. He owns the ticket. He's worth $500 million. Is he avoiding taxes by not cashing it in right away? Should his tax rate be defined based on what he could have right now? Should he be given a tax bill of $200 million the day after he gets the ticket even if he doesn't cash it?

When he cashes it, he will pay taxes on it just like a billionaire will.

You didn't read the article.

What part did I miss? I concentrated on the unrealized gains they were using to say that they were paying a tax rate of like .5%. There was a very generic analysis of "tax breaks" which included things like deducting interest payments but it really didn't seem to make a big difference either way.

Any answer to my lottery ticket question?


He would realize 500 million in income in ten years. MANY ensure that the vast majority of their income is never realized.

Was he avoiding taxes those 10 years?

Maybe put a 10 year expiration on stock options.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:12 pm 
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Is the guy in your entirely unique, invented scenario avoiding taxes? No. But (1) winning lottery tickets typically expire in one year IRL (2) people who win the lottery are realizing that income immediately.

FWIW the forced seizure of assets isnt a workable solution.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:12 pm 
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Imagine simping for billionaires.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:15 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:40 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
So we're all good with journalists getting their hands on individual tax records of Americans and publishing them?


JLN trampling all over the glorious First Amendment. Very sad!

Something, something, rights aren't absolute, something, something yell fire in a crowded theater and fire codes.

But seriously, what public interest is served in retrieving and publishing the details of Bezos's personal return? Does every American have a Right To Know the effective tax rate paid by any other American, or is it just the rich ones? And how rich must they be?


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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:47 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
So we're all good with journalists getting their hands on individual tax records of Americans and publishing them?


JLN trampling all over the glorious First Amendment. Very sad!

Something, something, rights aren't absolute, something, something yell fire in a crowded theater and fire codes.

But seriously, what public interest is served in retrieving and publishing the details of Bezos's personal return? Does every American have a Right To Know the effective tax rate paid by any other American, or is it just the rich ones? And how rich must they be?


Indeed, what possible pubic interest could there be in deciphering how the ultra-wealthy evade tax obligations?

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:52 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
So we're all good with journalists getting their hands on individual tax records of Americans and publishing them?


JLN trampling all over the glorious First Amendment. Very sad!

Something, something, rights aren't absolute, something, something yell fire in a crowded theater and fire codes.

But seriously, what public interest is served in retrieving and publishing the details of Bezos's personal return? Does every American have a Right To Know the effective tax rate paid by any other American, or is it just the rich ones? And how rich must they be?


Indeed, what possible pubic interest could there be in deciphering how the ultra-wealthy evade tax obligations?

Are the journalists alleging tax fraud? Are the returns under investigation for fraud? Do you think it is a good idea to allow "journalists" to just up and decide any old person or group of people must be engaging in criminal activity and to then get their hands on and publish any personal/private information they can?


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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:56 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Indeed, what possible pubic interest could there be in deciphering how the ultra-wealthy evade tax obligations?


Avoid, not evade.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:02 pm 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Indeed, what possible pubic interest could there be in deciphering how the ultra-wealthy evade tax obligations?


Avoid, not evade.


I don't say avoision, I say evasion.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:04 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Indeed, what possible pubic interest could there be in deciphering how the ultra-wealthy evade tax obligations?


Avoid, not evade.


I don't say avoision, I say evasion.

Do you maximize your tax liability?


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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:05 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
So we're all good with journalists getting their hands on individual tax records of Americans and publishing them?


JLN trampling all over the glorious First Amendment. Very sad!

Something, something, rights aren't absolute, something, something yell fire in a crowded theater and fire codes.

But seriously, what public interest is served in retrieving and publishing the details of Bezos's personal return? Does every American have a Right To Know the effective tax rate paid by any other American, or is it just the rich ones? And how rich must they be?


Indeed, what possible pubic interest could there be in deciphering how the ultra-wealthy evade tax obligations?

Are the journalists alleging tax fraud? Are the returns under investigation for fraud? Do you think it is a good idea to allow "journalists" to just up and decide any old person or group of people must be engaging in criminal activity and to then get their hands on and publish any personal/private information they can?


No, and that doesn't matter. No, and that doesn't matter. No, but these are not "any old group of people".

Man, seems like you would really love one of these:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:06 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Indeed, what possible pubic interest could there be in deciphering how the ultra-wealthy evade tax obligations?


Avoid, not evade.


I don't say avoision, I say evasion.

Do you maximize your tax liability?


It's possible. I am very bad at math.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:10 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
So we're all good with journalists getting their hands on individual tax records of Americans and publishing them?


JLN trampling all over the glorious First Amendment. Very sad!

Something, something, rights aren't absolute, something, something yell fire in a crowded theater and fire codes.

But seriously, what public interest is served in retrieving and publishing the details of Bezos's personal return? Does every American have a Right To Know the effective tax rate paid by any other American, or is it just the rich ones? And how rich must they be?


Indeed, what possible pubic interest could there be in deciphering how the ultra-wealthy evade tax obligations?

Are the journalists alleging tax fraud? Are the returns under investigation for fraud? Do you think it is a good idea to allow "journalists" to just up and decide any old person or group of people must be engaging in criminal activity and to then get their hands on and publish any personal/private information they can?


No, and that doesn't matter. No, and that doesn't matter. No, but these are not "any old group of people".

Man, seems like you would really love one of these:

Image

So the publication of individual tax returns of Americans can be in the public interest if...those Americans have a lot of stuff? How much stuff? Who decides?


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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:13 pm 
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:lol:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:13 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
So the publication of individual tax returns of Americans can be in the public interest if...those Americans have a lot of stuff? How much stuff? Who decides?


How can we possibly know who is a public figure? Man this is tough!

Do you need to refer to the mat again?

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Last edited by SpiralStairs on Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:14 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
[No, and that doesn't matter. No, but these are not "any old group of people".

Maybe Congress should pass a law to assess taxes on the unrealized gains of these specific people. And because they’d be achieving some measure of fairness in the tax code, I imagine they’ll have wide support for this bill of obtain’der.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:16 pm 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
[No, and that doesn't matter. No, but these are not "any old group of people".

Maybe Congress should pass a law to assess taxes on the unrealized gains of these specific people. And because they’d be achieving some measure of fairness in the tax code, I imagine they’ll have wide support for this bill of obtain’der.


I have a feeling any bill like that is going to die in committee for some strange reason.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:16 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
So the publication of individual tax returns of Americans can be in the public interest if...those Americans have a lot of stuff? How much stuff? Who decides?


How can we possibly know who is a public figure? Man this is tough!

Do you need to refer to the mat again?

Anything about public figures is fair game to be published. Right, Hulk Hogan?


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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:17 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
So the publication of individual tax returns of Americans can be in the public interest if...those Americans have a lot of stuff? How much stuff? Who decides?


How can we possibly know who is a public figure? Man this is tough!

Do you need to refer to the mat again?

Anything about public figures is fair game to be published. Right, Hulk Hogan?


Yes. You're right. I did bring up Hulk Hogan to bolster my argument! Congrats on throwing that back in my face.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:18 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
[No, and that doesn't matter. No, but these are not "any old group of people".

Maybe Congress should pass a law to assess taxes on the unrealized gains of these specific people. And because they’d be achieving some measure of fairness in the tax code, I imagine they’ll have wide support for this bill of obtain’der.


I have a feeling any bill like that is going to die in committee for some strange reason.

Well we’ll always have the ProPublica exposé I suppose.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:19 pm 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
[No, and that doesn't matter. No, but these are not "any old group of people".

Maybe Congress should pass a law to assess taxes on the unrealized gains of these specific people. And because they’d be achieving some measure of fairness in the tax code, I imagine they’ll have wide support for this bill of obtain’der.


I have a feeling any bill like that is going to die in committee for some strange reason.

Well we’ll always have the ProPublica exposé I suppose.


Now you're getting it!

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:21 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
So the publication of individual tax returns of Americans can be in the public interest if...those Americans have a lot of stuff? How much stuff? Who decides?


How can we possibly know who is a public figure? Man this is tough!

Do you need to refer to the mat again?

Anything about public figures is fair game to be published. Right, Hulk Hogan?


Yes. You're right. I did bring up Hulk Hogan to bolster my argument! Congrats on throwing that back in my face.

"I didn't bring up that fact that makes my argument look silly so it is irrelevant!"


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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:22 pm 
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Nothing is going to happen because of this article.

Any of these people could murder a newborn baby on national tv, and Congress or the police wouldn’t do a damn thing about it.

Just some trending tweets about cancelling them.

That’s all.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:22 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
[No, and that doesn't matter. No, but these are not "any old group of people".

Maybe Congress should pass a law to assess taxes on the unrealized gains of these specific people. And because they’d be achieving some measure of fairness in the tax code, I imagine they’ll have wide support for this bill of obtain’der.


I have a feeling any bill like that is going to die in committee for some strange reason.

Well we’ll always have the ProPublica exposé I suppose.


Now you're getting it!

Complaining about stuff is so much better. I lived the whole cycle of this story inside of a few hours with nary a committee meeting to sit through.

The story didn’t have much of a climax, but I think we’d all agree we’re in a better place with this matter now done & dusted.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:24 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
So the publication of individual tax returns of Americans can be in the public interest if...those Americans have a lot of stuff? How much stuff? Who decides?


How can we possibly know who is a public figure? Man this is tough!

Do you need to refer to the mat again?

Anything about public figures is fair game to be published. Right, Hulk Hogan?


Yes. You're right. I did bring up Hulk Hogan to bolster my argument! Congrats on throwing that back in my face.

"I didn't bring up that fact that makes my argument look silly so it is irrelevant!"


You might wanna check these posts because you're the one putting words in my mouth. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:26 pm 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
[No, and that doesn't matter. No, but these are not "any old group of people".

Maybe Congress should pass a law to assess taxes on the unrealized gains of these specific people. And because they’d be achieving some measure of fairness in the tax code, I imagine they’ll have wide support for this bill of obtain’der.


I have a feeling any bill like that is going to die in committee for some strange reason.

Well we’ll always have the ProPublica exposé I suppose.


Now you're getting it!

Complaining about stuff is so much better. I lived the whole cycle of this story inside of a few hours with nary a committee meeting to sit through.

The story didn’t have much of a climax, but I think we’d all agree we’re in a better place with this matter now done & dusted.


There's a few more articles to come. I'll be back here from time to time. Raging impotently.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:26 pm 
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Spiral, let me ask you, do you see any way in which the transfer of that tax return information to journalists was legal or otherwise ethical, outside of the individuals handing it over themselves?


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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:32 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
I'll be back here from time to time. Raging impotently.

Get
Image


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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:35 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Spiral, let me ask you, do you see any way in which the transfer of that tax return information to journalists was legal or otherwise ethical, outside of the individuals handing it over themselves?


Legal, probably not. Ethical? I don't think that's at play here.

MANY stories that are in the public interest are not always legally obtained. That's why the First Amendment is first whereas "criminalizing the receipt of information that may have been obtained illegally" is not found anywhere in the Constitution.

JLN and the Biden admin can find common ground in viewing folks like Julian Assange and Edward Snowden as arch criminals.

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 Post subject: Re: ProPublica
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:38 pm 
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SpiralStairs wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Spiral, let me ask you, do you see any way in which the transfer of that tax return information to journalists was legal or otherwise ethical, outside of the individuals handing it over themselves?


Legal, probably not. Ethical? I don't think that's at play here.

MANY stories that are in the public interest are not always legally obtained. That's why the First Amendment is first whereas "criminalizing the receipt of information that may have been obtained illegally" is not found anywhere in the Constitution.

JLN and the Biden admin can find common ground in viewing folks like Julian Assange and Edward Snowden as arch criminals.

So any information obtained on a public figure is fair game for publication? Nick Denton could've used you on his legal team.


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