It's a little more complicated than that, Rick. We can both pretend to be obtuse or we can have a real conversation. As you know, many times Rodman wasn't being guarded by the guy who was guarding him. A good two-way player- take Pippen for example- he wasn't going to be wasted defensively guarding Rodman even though Rodman may have been guarding him. But I'm sure you don't want to argue that Rodman was a better player than Pippen. If they guarded each other for 81 games, I'm gonna say Pippen would average 12 and Rodman would average 3 or something close to that.

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Well you’d have 12 fouls, no need to waste them by not using them.

Pippen was clearly a better player than Rodman. What is the point of moving the argument there?

If Rodman was truly in the bottom 10% of starters at his position then it is another reason to be impressed with the results of the Bulls given the supporting cast that Jordan and Pippen played with.

Now, add in that Pippen wasn't anywhere close to as good as Kevin Durant and I think you are starting to come to the same conclusion that 90s Bulls fanboys like myself have come to!

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JORR's Absurd Take of the Day according to Boilermaker Rick:

The best player on every NBA team was better than Dennis Rodman.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

He's right, zone defense is for kids' teams and the talentless (gutless). It's ugly ball that led to a game where idiot talking heads have made 3pt % their primary criterion.

It's a reason why despite all the talent, Syracuse has only one title.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

That's not what you said. You said 90% of the players he was guarding were better than him. He wasn't guarding other guards. He rarely guarded true centers since they had 3 true centers to either guard or foul.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

idk i don't feel strongly about it one way or the other, i don't think it's been detrimental . I guess to put it another way I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed.

He often guarded guards and centers. Most of the time he was covering the other team's best player.

I think it's telling that you had to bring up Dennis Rodman, a specialty player who is really a unique one-of-one type guy, in order to argue with me. And you aren't even really arguing the subject at hand. Instead you're trying to turn it into a conversation about the greatness of Michael Jordan. I have to hand it to you, you are very tenacious in promoting your brand.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

This just isn't true. What guards was he assigned to? He did spend some time on centers but there is a reason they had a big group of centers who played a lot of combined minutes. Who were they guarding when Rodman was guarding Ewing or Shaq?

It's to prove a point that Scottie Pippen didn't have to "outscore" his assigned man to have done a great job in defending him, and I'm using an example of a player who played with Scottie Pippen, and you are also surprised that another player who played with Scottie Pippen got brought into the conversation.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEpHpNSX4Mg



He doesn't have to outscore him for Team Pippen to be better than Team Durant. But if they're both covering each other, the guy who scores more is obviously the better player. You seem to be assuming that Pippen will always have a better player like Jordan on his team to win the game. You know Durant is a better player than Pippen just like you know Pippen is a better player than Rodman.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

We aren't talking about Pistons Rodman. We are talking about Bulls Rodman.

It's a lot more complicated than total points scored but outside of Jordan, and maybe a couple other elite NBA players, you are basically making the best defensive players the ones who score the most.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

We are? Maybe you are. Because you have Michael Jordan on the brain.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Yeah, a discussion about Scottie Pippen's scoring ability as a player should never mention Michael Jordan.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Not reading this whole thread.

I thought the entire reason Jackson drew up that play for Kukoc was because earlier in the season a very similar play late in the game saw Toni open and he hit the shot?

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Jorr musta had a double expresso this morning.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

I think Toni hit four or five buzzer beater/game winners that year. It was the logical call. Pippen wasn't a great isolation player.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Durant is a level higher than Pippen.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

And Pippen's team would win

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No offense, but your idea of how basketball played is so reductive it's to the point of ridiculousness.

Let's take the Bulls Jazz Finals. Rodman didn't need to outscore Karl Malone to "do his job". He needed to reduce Malone from a superstar to just a decent player, which he did. And the Jazz had nobody that could do the same to MJ. And that was the difference. Rodman did his job, did it well, and that's why we won.

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Pippen is universally regarded as one of he all-time greatest defenders in the game.
Does Durant even care about playing defense?

Comparing the 2 seems a bit silly as they're completely different players.

I loved Pippen, but he's not getting the ball for a game winning shot

_________________

If it had Jordan.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Are you now making the argument that Rodman was better than Karl Malone? If you're saying that it probably doesn't matter that Durant is better than Pippen if Michael Jordan is on Pippen's team, stipulated.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

How is that obvious?

Player A gets 6 points, 14 rebounds, 12 assists, 5 steals, 5 blocks

Player B gets 12 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 0 steals, 0 blocks


JORR: Player B is obviously twice as good!

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Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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If I was making that argument I would have made it. I didn't. I'm trying to explain to you that that team basketball and 1 on 1 basketball are not synonymous. I find your "scoring points is the only thing that matters" take to be quite bizarre. But it also does explain why you don't appreciate guys like Pippen and Rodman as much as most fans do.

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We've had a version of this argument before. All that matters is the difference in points. Everything else is just the events that lead to the ultimate differential. My premise is two guys guarding each other, i.e. a game within the game. If one guy outscores the other by ten, I'm saying he's the better player. The fact that the greatest guy ever to play happens to be on the same team as the worse player doesn't change that fact.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Yeah basketball is not just five 1 on 1 match ups. Many players have a specific job on the court. Maybe it is defense or rebounding or stand in a corner to shoot 3s.

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Your premise is insane. Let's take it to it's logical hypothetical end point. Kawhi Leonard and Durant guard eachother when the Clippers and Nets play. Durant takes every single shot for the Nets. Shoots 20-70 from the field. Scores 50 points. Kawhi shoots 12-20 from the field, scores 30 points, to go with 8 assists and 8 rebounds. The Clippers win 120-50. There's no version of that game where Durant is the better player. You're completing ignoring efficiency, as well as literally everything else that goes into playing basketball like defense, passing, dribbling, shooting, etc.

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In Game 1 of the ECF in 1997, Penny Hardaway scored 38 Jordan only scored 21. The Bulls won by 27 points.

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Right. It's beyond crazy to me that this even has to be explained

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Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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You're so out of your depth here.

You must not remember World B. Free, Maravich or George Gervin.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.