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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:33 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
He's been discussed all morning in this thread and the only who is bringing up Jordan is you.


Uh, you may want to reread the thread.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:36 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Let's leave pitchers out of the discussion.

Why? They’re representative of players who don’t need to score to have a tremendous impact on the game. Basketball is a more fluid game so the distinctions aren’t as obvious, but it’s fundamentally the same premise - different players do different things.


I reject the premise. I understand that different basketball players do different things. But that's because they aren't equally skilled and capable. A pitcher cannot hit a homerun (as a pitcher). There is nothing stopping Dennis Rodman from scoring more than Kobe Bryant except Dennis Rodman's ability.

Why is preventing offense necessarily a lesser skill than creating offense?



It's not. But if you're covering the same man who is covering you- and that was the premise I started with- what are you "preventing" when the other guy is scoring more than you are?

FavreFan took a swipe at Durant and now he's going through contortions because he doesn't want to come right out and say Pippen was better. Because he knows it's silly. Trust me, if Pippen and Durant were covering each other, it isn't Durant that is going to be having migraine headaches.

Has anybody tried the physicality of 90s era ball argument? Particularly vis-à-vis Durant’s penchant to cry like a baby back bitch?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:38 pm 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Let's leave pitchers out of the discussion.

Why? They’re representative of players who don’t need to score to have a tremendous impact on the game. Basketball is a more fluid game so the distinctions aren’t as obvious, but it’s fundamentally the same premise - different players do different things.


I reject the premise. I understand that different basketball players do different things. But that's because they aren't equally skilled and capable. A pitcher cannot hit a homerun (as a pitcher). There is nothing stopping Dennis Rodman from scoring more than Kobe Bryant except Dennis Rodman's ability.

Why is preventing offense necessarily a lesser skill than creating offense?



It's not. But if you're covering the same man who is covering you- and that was the premise I started with- what are you "preventing" when the other guy is scoring more than you are?

FavreFan took a swipe at Durant and now he's going through contortions because he doesn't want to come right out and say Pippen was better. Because he knows it's silly. Trust me, if Pippen and Durant were covering each other, it isn't Durant that is going to be having migraine headaches.

Has anybody tried the physicality of 90s era ball argument? Particularly vis-à-vis Durant’s penchant to cry like a baby back patriot?


If someone does I will raise my trolling game to the next level. I promise you that.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:40 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
But if they're both covering each other, the guy who scores more is obviously the better player.

How is that obvious?

Player A gets 6 points, 14 rebounds, 12 assists, 5 steals, 5 blocks

Player B gets 12 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 0 steals, 0 blocks


JORR: Player B is obviously twice as good! :lol:



We've had a version of this argument before. All that matters is the difference in points. Everything else is just the events that lead to the ultimate differential. My premise is two guys guarding each other, i.e. a game within the game. If one guy outscores the other by ten, I'm saying he's the better player. The fact that the greatest guy ever to play happens to be on the same team as the worse player doesn't change that fact.

:lol: You're so out of your depth here.

You must not remember World B. Free, Maravich or George Gervin.


You're out of your depth is you're saying those guys weren't all great players. Lloyd Free had personal issues and craziness but the other two guys were consistent premium players. I'll argue that Maravich was better than Pippen anyday. Even though I know it will be ridiculed by Bulls fanboys.


Growing up my favorite player was Maravich, but he didn't have skills beyond shooting over Pippen, and I honestly believe that Pippen would've locked him up.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:42 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
I can't follow any of these arguments. Can we just admit that Durant is the better player? Or in Chicago is looking objectively at Pippen as blasphemous as looking objectively at Jordan?

Looking at some of the objective, advanced stuff at basketball reference, Pippen’s prime wasn’t that far off from Durant in terms of win shares (save for two of KD’s OKC seasons, which were insane). Not surprisingly, Pip’s off/def splits are pretty even whereas KD skews heavily toward offense.

Also interesting, KD’s average win shares drop below Pippen’s when he gets to a super team in GS.

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Last edited by This Ends in Antioch on Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:43 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
If someone does I will raise my trolling game to the next level. I promise you that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:44 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Growing up my favorite player was Maravich, but he didn't have skills beyond shooting over Pippen, and I honestly believe that Pippen would've locked him up.


Maravich was a pretty complete player. I'm obviously not going to say he was the defender that Pippen was, but he seems to have a reputation as a perimeter spot-up shooter fostered by those who never actually saw him. He could slash to the hoop with the best of them and in an era where there was a seven foot, 300 lb. hunk of muscle under the basket ready and willing to knock you down. It's a shame he got hurt.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:48 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan took a swipe at Durant and now he's going through contortions because he doesn't want to come right out and say Pippen was better. Because he knows it's silly. Trust me, if Pippen and Durant were covering each other, it isn't Durant that is going to be having migraine headaches.

Pippen's not better than Durant. Never said he was, never implied he was. I said that Durant has never been guarded by a defender as good as Pip, which is true.

But let's talk about contortions. You think Magic is the best player to ever play, yet you have spend this entire thread making it very clear that the only way a player should be judged is on his ability to outscore his opponent playing the same position. Given your stated criteria for how we should be judging a player, Magic Johnson isn't in the same stratosphere as Jordan then. There's no way for you to reconcile that.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:08 pm 
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This is quite the bizzarro CFMB.

A thread with "racial move" in the title actually evolves into a serious sports discussion.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:09 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
This is quite the bizzarro CFMB.

A thread with "racial move" in the title actually evolves into a serious sports discussion.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:10 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
This is quite the bizzarro CFMB.

A thread with "racial move" in the title actually evolves into a serious sports discussion.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:12 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
This is quite the bizzarro CFMB.

A thread with "racial move" in the title actually evolves into a serious sports discussion.

:lol:

+ :D :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:19 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
This is quite the bizzarro CFMB.

A thread with "racial move" in the title actually evolves into a serious sports discussion.


CRT works!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:28 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan took a swipe at Durant and now he's going through contortions because he doesn't want to come right out and say Pippen was better. Because he knows it's silly. Trust me, if Pippen and Durant were covering each other, it isn't Durant that is going to be having migraine headaches.

Pippen's not better than Durant. Never said he was, never implied he was. I said that Durant has never been guarded by a defender as good as Pip, which is true.

But let's talk about contortions. You think Magic is the best player to ever play, yet you have spend this entire thread making it very clear that the only way a player should be judged is on his ability to outscore his opponent playing the same position. Given your stated criteria for how we should be judging a player, Magic Johnson isn't in the same stratosphere as Jordan then. There's no way for you to reconcile that.



Magic is the director, the creator, the giver of the ball.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:37 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan took a swipe at Durant and now he's going through contortions because he doesn't want to come right out and say Pippen was better. Because he knows it's silly. Trust me, if Pippen and Durant were covering each other, it isn't Durant that is going to be having migraine headaches.

Pippen's not better than Durant. Never said he was, never implied he was. I said that Durant has never been guarded by a defender as good as Pip, which is true.

But let's talk about contortions. You think Magic is the best player to ever play, yet you have spend this entire thread making it very clear that the only way a player should be judged is on his ability to outscore his opponent playing the same position. Given your stated criteria for how we should be judging a player, Magic Johnson isn't in the same stratosphere as Jordan then. There's no way for you to reconcile that.



Magic is the director, the creator, the giver of the ball.

so he's a taller, darker Stockton?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:40 pm 
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I was thinking the same thing Frank. I did not expect to see the discussion we're seeing here but I am glad it's happened.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:42 pm 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I can't follow any of these arguments. Can we just admit that Durant is the better player? Or in Chicago is looking objectively at Pippen as blasphemous as looking objectively at Jordan?

Looking at some of the objective, advanced stuff at basketball reference, Pippen’s prime wasn’t that far off from Durant in terms of win shares (save for two of KD’s OKC seasons, which were insane). Not surprisingly, Pip’s off/def splits are pretty even whereas KD skews heavily toward offense.

Also interesting, KD’s average win shares drop below Pippen’s when he gets to a super team in GS.


Well taken but I doubt in a draft anyone is taking Pippen over Durant. You draft a guy like Durant and then hope you can find a Pippen to support him.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:44 pm 
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It's like JORR is a mother in law mathematician. Laser focused on those times you got outscored.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:46 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I can't follow any of these arguments. Can we just admit that Durant is the better player? Or in Chicago is looking objectively at Pippen as blasphemous as looking objectively at Jordan?

Looking at some of the objective, advanced stuff at basketball reference, Pippen’s prime wasn’t that far off from Durant in terms of win shares (save for two of KD’s OKC seasons, which were insane). Not surprisingly, Pip’s off/def splits are pretty even whereas KD skews heavily toward offense.

Also interesting, KD’s average win shares drop below Pippen’s when he gets to a super team in GS.


Well taken but I doubt in a draft anyone is taking Pippen over Durant. You draft a guy like Durant and then hope you can find a Pippen to support him.

Well now, sure. But in the bruising 90s, building your franchise around an oft injured prima donna would not have ended well.

The basketball was just way, way too physical for today’s players.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:46 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan took a swipe at Durant and now he's going through contortions because he doesn't want to come right out and say Pippen was better. Because he knows it's silly. Trust me, if Pippen and Durant were covering each other, it isn't Durant that is going to be having migraine headaches.

Pippen's not better than Durant. Never said he was, never implied he was. I said that Durant has never been guarded by a defender as good as Pip, which is true.

But let's talk about contortions. You think Magic is the best player to ever play, yet you have spend this entire thread making it very clear that the only way a player should be judged is on his ability to outscore his opponent playing the same position. Given your stated criteria for how we should be judging a player, Magic Johnson isn't in the same stratosphere as Jordan then. There's no way for you to reconcile that.



Magic is the director, the creator, the giver of the ball.

He's the only player in history excluded from your normal criteria on how to judge a player? What a coincidence! :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:22 pm 
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Scottie's going through some issues. His oldest son died, he felt embarrassed by his Last Dance portrayal. He seems to be drinking a lot. Just grief and mid life crisis coming together.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:25 pm 
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$5000 Suit wrote:
Scottie's going through some issues. His oldest son died, he felt embarrassed by his Last Dance portrayal. He seems to be drinking a lot. Just grief and mid life crisis coming together.

Damn, you may be right. Drinking bourbon and smoking a cigar at 10 am was surprising.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:52 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
$5000 Suit wrote:
Scottie's going through some issues. His oldest son died, he felt embarrassed by his Last Dance portrayal. He seems to be drinking a lot. Just grief and mid life crisis coming together.

Damn, you may be right. Drinking bourbon and smoking a cigar at 10 am was surprising.

In terms of Pippen....did the Last Dance uncover anything unknown? Based on my memory, the negative things on Scottie were all covered at the time...no surprises. Last Dance also showed Pippen's great moments, too.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:01 pm 
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New look

https://www.gq.com/story/scottie-pippen-nba-bulls

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:06 pm 
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blackhawksfan wrote:


he's starting to morph into Dan Bejar


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:08 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
$5000 Suit wrote:
Scottie's going through some issues. His oldest son died, he felt embarrassed by his Last Dance portrayal. He seems to be drinking a lot. Just grief and mid life crisis coming together.

Damn, you may be right. Drinking bourbon and smoking a cigar at 10 am was surprising.



Yeah.. little early for a cigar.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:22 pm 
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Scottie is retired. I bet most retired folks start drinking at 10 once they realize their bucket list only lasts 2 months.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:26 pm 
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Kevin Durant would be a bench player at best in the late 80s/early 90s NBA.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:33 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Kevin Durant would be a bench player at best in the late 80s/early 90s NBA.


it's good to interject a dumbass thought every so often to keep the thread going


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:36 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Kevin Durant would be a bench player at best in the late 80s/early 90s NBA.


it's good to interject a dumbass thought every so often to keep the thread going

The Bob specialty

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