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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2022 8:35 am 
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Clawmaster wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Clawmaster wrote:
Darkside wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
billypootons wrote:
what if they didn't halt their armor and had annihilated the British at Dunkirk in 1940? would they have taken england?


I don't think there was ever any realistic scenario where they occupy the home island. Germany did not have the navy to pull off that operation. If they destroy the British Army though, is there the will to carry on the war?

They'd lost an air campaign by then too and did not achieve necessary air superiority to overwatch an invasion.


Have read a bit about this subject and there is quite a bit of discussion about the decision by the Germans to pour resources into armor production over the development of long range heavy bombers, this decision also steered resources away from the German Navy as well, but the Germans had gamed Operation Sea Lion came to similar conclusions the US did when it came to invading Japan, there would be massive casualties, and it would require tons of resources. The British still had a substantial home fleet and it would be almost impossible to provide support for landing ships.

There was also the miscalculation during the Battle of Britan where they went away from attacking air bases, which was very successful early, to bombing cities.

However, the decision that impacted the Moscow campaign the most was likely the attempts made to secure oil fields in the Caucuses, early on there was a realization of the need to secure oil sources.


I've never heard the oil fields having any impact on the drive to Moscow. I've heard that encircling and destroying the Russians at Kiev slowed the advance on Moscow, but I don't know how you leave that force out there. The first few months of Barbarossa was devasting. It was an incredible effort by the Soviets to not surrender and respond. The Nazis turning it into a war of annihilation, perhaps, made it inevitable


Operation Edelweiss, or the Caucasus campaign was one of Hitler's goals, they wanted to capture the resource rich territory in the Ukraine, kind of odd that history keeps repeating itself, but the oil fields were essential in order to supply fuel to the armored units which were essential to the success of the German operational doctrine. There was a substantial diversion to the south which lessened the resources directed toward Moscow and gave the Russians time to build defense lines and eventually bring in Siberian troops.

The Russians lost 2-3 times more men than the Germans, but they could continue to throw men into the meat grinder, the German supply lines became over extended, and after Kursk it was a steady annihilation of the German army as the Russians pushed them back all the way to Berlin.


That was in 1942. I am talking about 1941.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2022 10:34 am 
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chaspoppcap wrote:
NWsider4-3-3 wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
NWsider4-3-3 wrote:
the germans don't win any scenario unless they secure malta and them and their jr. partner the italians, win n. africa first. if that happened, every british naval/merchant craft, would have had to sail around s. africa. they had over 1 year to accomplish this (italy entrance into the war - may 1940 until barbarrosa june 1941). the afrika korps was a reaction to italian futility, the germans had totally ignored the importance of n. africa and eliminating malta as a massive stone in the shoe. an example is the military (strategic and tactical) intellect of kesselring vs. goring.

at the end of the day, the germans couldn't keep up with reserves. if there was a 115 mile front and the soviets and germans each had 6 divisions on those 115 miles, the soviets may have had 3 reserve divisions, the germans had none. will never win any war of attrition that way.

i agree with the article.


This is a very practical answer, but if war was just about the numbers France would not have fallen in a month.


the germans had how many fronts in 1943 and 1944? it wasn't a numbers game in the spring of 1940. plenty of reserves.



Well, not just active fronts but garrisons
active front Russia and Africa

Large Garrisons-France,low countries, Greece,Yugoslavia,Norway(over 200,000). Plus you had all the men involved in the final solution. And this is a big one,the Germans did not go to a wartime economy footing until 1944


yes, maybe the nazis should have waited until they 'won' the war, then implement their philosophical policies - maybe they would have had more skilled and unskilled workers, been able to extract more resources and been able to recruit more foreigners - particularly to fight the soviets.

it appears that every nation the nazis conquered, turned out to be a net drag on german manpower, resources and logistics. so, what's the point of goose-stepping into all these nations? turns out that himmler should have been kept in a closet, then released after the war was won.


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2022 10:49 am 
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A ton of Russians defected to the Nazis and saw them as liberators from Stalin. If the Nazis weren't bent on wiping out the people there the entire rotten system might have collapsed as Hitler predicted. Providing them with certain annihilation didn't help the cause.

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 10:14 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
That was in 1942. I am talking about 1941.

:lol:


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